REVIEWING FAUST'S BUTTERFLIES CRITIQUE of my BOOKLET AGAINST JOEY FAUST'S HERESY

By Herb Evans

E-mail: HerbEvans@juno.com

These are answers to a lengthy Butterflies critique by Joey Faust of my booklet, "Barbecued Baptist Toasties." Joey thinks that he should be heard for his much speaking. We have snipped the bull and limited the exchange to his objections to the points of my booklet, "Barbecued Baptist Toasties."  We have waited to answer Mr. Faust's objections until after he came out with another edition of, "The Rod," for Faust would use Herb Evans to plug up the holes and prop up the weak points of the various editions of his "Believers in the Lake of Fire heresy."  This  response to his Butterflies critique is not to be confused with a debate as Faust likes to call it. Rather, it serves as an Expose of his heresy by publicly flushing out his own comments, which do untold damage to his credibility. -- Herb Evans

*   *   *

BUTTERFLIES, BUNNIES AND BUTTERCUPS: THE LAODICEAN DOWNGRADE of the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST and the TERROR OF THE LORD (Faust Replies to the new booklet by Herb Evans on the Judgment Seat of Christ)

My book already anticipated almost every objection Herb raises and answers it under a chapter called, "Objections Answered.":     

1. Herb writes: "Either edition is the most damaging attack on Independent, Fundamental, Baptist soteriology that has come along in quite a while."       
 

Herb would like to pretend that ALL Independent, Fundamental Baptists agree with him, and disagree with me. I have learned recently that this is not the case. (He certainly has most of modern tradition and emotion on his side.) Furthermore, my book documents that many earlier fundamental Baptists shared my convictions. And many others were closer to my view than Herb's view. Yet, at this point, we must ask WHY my book is an attack on "soteriology" --Joey Faust 

It IS an attack on soteriology, since it regards ETERNAL LIFE as not continuous for some believers, based  on their  works and continuous for others believers, also based on their works. It challenges eternal life by grace through faith, plus nothing minus nothing. It is also an attack on soteriology in that Joey puts born again Christians in the lake of fire and also into a fiery hell, something that they have been saved from by believing on Christ. Joey embraces a YO-YO type eternal life in  which carnal Christians lose either their eternal life temporarily or they go to hell and the Lake of fire still possessing eternal life, a misnomer. This is hardly much different from the Catholics who have eternal life but must make a PIT stop in Purgatory, before they can realize continuous eternal life. Whether a subterranean hell or the Lake of fire, Joey Faust's allegation is an insult to Jesus Christ, who tells born again Christians that He will NEVER leave them nor forsake them, let alone SLAY them at the JSOC per Joey Faust’s heresy.  –Herb Evans         
 

            . . . Herb says [why no quote?] that the unfruitful believer is not a REAL Christian, and that therefore his punishment will be endless torment in the Lake of Fire. My view allows all believers in the Gospel to be secure in their eternal salvation IN SPITE of their works or degree of fruit-bearing. Herb's view forces all believers to spend their whole lives examining their works and fruit in order to try to PROVE they are really believers. They must obviously, then, wait until the end of life, to look back over their whole course and try to determine if they were "fruitful," and therefore, "true." Yet the Bible says that only God can truly judge hearts (1 Corinthians 4:3-5). Therefore, Herb's first accusation against us is a good example of how guilty parties often feel the need to, first, quickly accuse their opponents of the very thing they know they will be accused of!    --Joey Faust  
 

Where did Herb Evans say all this? Joey Faust is building a straw man to tear down. Herb Evans believes no such thing. Joey is very sensitive to his opponents getting his convoluted beliefs mixed up or misrepresented. Yet, he needs to take more care in getting the beliefs of his opponents straight. Believers are judged by the cross not their works in regard to eternal life. -- Herb Evans     

 

2. Herb writes: "In his book, Faust quotes extensively many dead writers (Pember, Govett, Panton, etc.) to convince believers in this century, when these dead writers could not convince (with any significant success) believers in their time and thereafter."
 

        How does Herb arrive at the conclusion that the writers quoted in my book did not convince many people? My book proves the opposite! He knows his readers probably will not read through my book and see the historic documentation for themselves. Furthermore, even if it could be stated that their precise views concerning the Judgment seat were never extremely popular, what would one expect? Is this how we judge truth?: --Joey Faust            
   

I did not discuss judging truth in that statement; I was discussing the methods of Joey Faust to convince people. Judging truth requires a Bible not dead writers. Herb Evans arrived at his conclusion by viewing today's majority view on the subject and Joey Faust's attempt to re-convince that majority, which evidently did not come from the ones that were convinced by his dead  writers. --Herb Evans       

My book shows that an amazing number of earlier saints (who each influenced multitudes in their ministries) shared these convictions. Yet, the view  is anchored on Scripture, not man. And I only quote these men to prove that earlier generations were more open to the fear of God, and a strong judgment seat, than this generation. --Joey Faust 

It would be interesting to find out how many are in this multitude and amazing number or to know if more than one hand is necessary to count Joey Faust's dead guy reinforcement, who  taught that carnal born again Christians went to hell or the lake of fire, like Joey Faust presently teaches. --Herb Evans 

3. Herb writes: "The one difference between the isolated comments of many of these writers and Joey Faust is that Joey Faust seeks to systematize his doctrine of believers in hell and the lake of fire by using their peripheral statements and adding to them his own imaginative and fanciful theories."

 

            ISOLATED comments? Where is the proof for this statement? Herb offers NO DOCUMENTATION or EXAMPLE of what he is referring to here. Is he suggesting that Pember, Govett, Tertullian, Panton, Craig, Nee, etc. did not openly and continually teach that believers could be slain at the judgment seat and banished to a place of darkness and fire in the underworld, to be chastised according to their deserts? My book proves otherwise. We would like to see Herb back up his various assertions such as this; otherwise he is simply creating straw men for readers whom he knows (or perhaps hopes) will never examine the issue first hand for themselves. -- Joey Faust      
 

All Joey has to do, is to prove a dead writer  systematization of such doctrine and give us all the quotes from the writers of his book that say born again Christians go to hell or the lake of fire or get killed at the JSOC. Then, we can determine whether I am correct about isolated comments. -- Herb Evans

4. Herb writes: "The other difference is the degree and sadistic severity to which Joey goes about his theory that believers are SLAIN by God at the Judgment Seat of Christ and cast into the lake of fire for a time." 
 

Herb first uses the word "sadistic." This is the emotional technique the Universalists use to deny eternal torment. Does Herb think that God is "sadistic" for tormenting unbelievers for trillions of years on out into eternity? --Joey Faust          

No, not God, but it is sadistic to have believers tormented with the lost  for even one instant.  I note that Joey has no proof text from any JSOC scripture to back up his theory that carnal born again Christians are SLAIN after being dead. What would  that do to his non continuous ETERNAL LIFE of carnal believers? -- Herb Evans   

Does Herb think that God is "sadistic" for giving some believers sickness and death in this life for not honoring the Lord's Supper with reverence (1 Corinthians 11)?        --Joey Faust 

Of course not, for that is the result of sin in their present body and their old nature; it is the result of BIBLICAL chastisement. Joey has no such qualifications after this life.  -- Herb Evans        

With such examples before us, how could anyone think that it would be "sadistic" for the Lord to chastise unfaithful believers who have spurned His warnings and grace when He returns on the day of JUDGMENT?   -- Joey Faust     

Apples and oranges, ol' boy. You are suggesting chastisement of sinless, new bodies of believers, not unbelievers, although you seem to be reluctant in taking a position on the state of these bodies that stand before the JSOC.
-- Herb Evans      

It also appears that Herb wants the reader to think he is FAMILIAR with 19th century (and early 20th century) premillennial eschatology. He appears to be saying that Govett, Pember, Craig, Nee, etc. did not go to the DEGREE that I go to in interpreting the warnings. –Joey Faust        

 

Herb Evans wants the reader to realize that Govett, Pember, Craig, Nee, and etc., are Joey Faust's "AMAZING NUMBERS?" How many of Joey's dead guy writers warned Christians about going to the lake of fire? Huh? -- Herb Evans     

But where is his documentation or proof? Herb's writings are filled with this type of lazy argumentation, that hopes the reader is either ignorant, or too lazy, or too emotional prejudiced to check the sources for himself.  -- Joey Faust 

The burden of proof is on Joey to produce these “AMAZING NUMBERS” are not isolated comments. I use the Bible to prove my position not history nor dead writers, even the ones that I like. –Herb Evans       

   
Besides the men that I quoted who shared my convictions . . . -- Joey Faust

This is weasel wording. Joey does not need more than one hand to count those, who share his convictions on Christians going to the lake of fire. Moreover, he has absolutely no scripture to prove such a heresy. 
-- Herb Evans 

. . . my book also certainly shows that there were many men that taught some type of literal stripes at the judgment seat . . . -- Joey Faust       

And neither Joey nor his writers have one single solitary direct reference to the JSOC that has Christians getting ANY stripes there. Joey has developed this by the doctrine of interpolated innuendo, using unrelated scripture and often wrong time frame based proof texts to force this theory into the scriptures. -- Herb Evans     

5. Herb writes: "Unfortunately, due to the pillared reputation of some of these writers, the preachers of that era, for some reason, gave them a pass and did not challenge them on their peripheral doctrines, which Joey is using to prove his lake of fire doctrine, i.e., kingdom exclusion and punishment at the judgment seat of Christ."

 

Herb again shows his lack of information concerning premillennial history. The periodicals and prophetic conferences of the time were literally FILLED with debates and articles on the subject of Millennial exclusion. Men such as Bullinger, Sir Robert Anderson and Pink did their best to resist the teaching with hyper-dispensational and amillennial reasonings. Yet, prophetic writers such as Pember remained, for years, the foremost speakers at premillennial prophetic conferences around the world. – Joey Faust 

 

Herb would rather show that he does not lack any scripture information to back up his doctrinal views as opposed to Joey's history. Herb Evans is not going to have to give an account for his history proficiency or dead writers. Yes, Pember, I know, but who art thou, Joey Faust? Still, Joey keeps trying to switch the subject to kingdom exclusion as opposed to the subject at hand, which Joey Faust  has been repeatedly challenged without direct answers, namely, carnal Christians in the lake of fire and believers killed by God at the JSOC. --HerbEvans

6. Herb writes: "Very few of them went as far as to suggest that God kills Christians at the Judgment Seat and afterwards throws carnal believers into the
Lake of Fire and Hell."

 

Even Herb, the Judgment Seat's most zealous, self-appointed adversary, is forced to admit that SOME did teach my views. And we would expect him to minimize and downplay the documentation!

 

I document in detail that the early premillennialists of the first few centuries, and later men such as Govett, Pember, Craig, Nee, etc. openly taught this view. Scores of other popular teachers endorsed these men and stated that they believed in their views concerning a partial reign. Herb believes other doctrines that have far less historical support. My purpose in including the extensive historical documentation was to remove the main objection against it: But if this is true, why are you the first person to find it in the Bible? I reveal that this truth is found in history wherever there is a revival of premillennialism and literal interpretation. –- Joey Faust

 

Don’t you love Joey Faust’s evasive generalities? What views? Who are the scores who  taught believers were tossed in the Lake of fire? How many of them taught that believers  were slain at the JSOC? How many of them believed that some Christians die and do not go to heaven but rather go to a sort of Baptist purgatory like Joey Faust teaches?  -- Herb Evans

 
7. Herb writes: "Make no mistake about it, Joey Faust is out to obviate, void, and steal the precious promises that the Lord gives to His people."

 

No, Joey Faust is out to reinforce the precious promises by rightly applying warnings to believers to the Millennial Kingdom instead of to eternity, thereby stealing the assurance of eternal salvation from Christians. Furthermore, God has just as much promised to chastise at the Judgment Seat as He has promised to save in eternity. I teach that there are some PROMISES that most believers in this age have forgotten or ignored.   --Joey Faust 

 

How inspiring! Joey wants to convey to you the NEGATIVE promises of the Lake of fire and hell, and the possibility of being SLAIN at the JSOC. How comforting is the apostle of uncertainty's promises are, but WHERE are these promises of the lake of fire, hell, and JSOCCHASTISEMENT?-- Herb Evans

 

  8. Herb writes: "Faust has absolutely no scripture to get believers into the Lake of Fire or Hell, much less to get them out of either."

 

"Believers?" Herb is now being extremely silly. We would like to ask Herb to show us all his Scriptures that say, "These warnings to Christian disciples are not really to saved people. They are to professors only." Herb has NO Scripture that teaches this. Yet it is the foundation of his whole denial. Notice the following Scriptures to BELIEVERS: -- Joey Faust   

 

Did you get that? Herb Evans is silly for demanding concrete scriptures for Christians going to the Lake of Fire. Instead of providing them, Faust avoids and evades the demands, opting rather to zero in on “lose your Salvationist” proof texts. Two peas in a pod! Well, let us look at Joey's warnings. -- Herb Evans    

 

Matthew 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his DISCIPLES [Including Judas] came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught THEM, saying, 13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 22 But I say UNTO YOU, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of HELL FIRE. –- Joey Faust

 

Obviously, Joey never would consider a mixed group of disciples here, even Judas.  Still, no Christians in the Lake of Fire or hell fire here, only an implication and  a  warning to  whosoever the shoe should fit-not believers, which  was, indeed, the  word that I used. We give the same general warnings to our own mixed multitude congregations, affording them another opportunity to accept the Lord. Yet, what does Joey do, he goes to a verse that has "disciples" in it, disciples, who are NOT necessarily ALL saved nor believers, namely Judas Iscariot. -- Herb Evans

 

Hebrews 10:24 And let US consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if WE sin wilfully after that WE have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, SUPPOSE YE, shall he be THOUGHT WORTHY, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For WE KNOW HIM that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge HIS PEOPLE.  -- Joey Faust

 

Yes, God judges His people. But where, when, how, and why are the questions. Notice that the question that is asked of the Hebrews is about SUPPOSING SORER PUNISHMENT, even their THOUGHTS of the worthiness of a punishment to fit these transgressions. Unfortunately, Joey does not continue with the discourse, where the writer continues, BUT WE are NOT of them that draw back UNTO PERDITION; but of them that BELIEVE to the SAVING of the soul in Hebrews 10:39 (perdition for  carnality?). There is no fire here. There is no burning here. There is no hell here. There are no stripes here. And there is no Lake of fire here. As usual, Joey changes the subject and interpolates such things into these kinds of passages.  -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto THE CHURCHES; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the SECOND DEATH. -- Joey Faust         

 

Joey's proof text shows nothing but a promise to those in the churches, who overcome by the blood of the lamb, for they will escape the second death, namely, the lake of fire. God does not distinguish between the carnal and non-carnal here. Any distinction here would have to be between the saved and the lost in the churches. Once again, Joey is interpolating his doctrine of innuendo and forcing it into this passage. -- Herb Evans

 

Matthew 10:27 What I tell YOU in darkness, that speak YE in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that PREACH YE upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body [note the absence of "YOUR"] in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without YOUR Father. – Joey Faust

 

The passage is talking about fearing God, who has the ABILITY to destroy bodies and souls in hell. IS Joey trying to tell us that the Christians' bodies AND souls will both be "destroyed" (some eternal life that is)? I thought that he disclaimed that. Romans 6:6 informs us that our old man is crucified with him that the BODY OF SIN (physical body) might be destroyed and that he that is dead is FREED from sin. We are sorry that Joey has not experienced the freedom and the death of the old man, for if he were dead with Christ, he would also live with Him and as Christ dieth no more, so it is with our souls (6:7-11). But certainly, we should preach to the saved and the lost the whole counsel of God. We just should not preach Joey's heresy.  -- Herb Evans

 

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore WE labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For WE must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that EVERY ONE may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good OR BAD. 11 Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. -- Joey Faust

 

It is a long way from this passage to the Lake of fire and hell. And it does say EVERY ONE will receive the things done in the [old] body, whether good [gold, silver, precious stones or bad [wood, hay, stubble]. Oh, Joey wants you to think the bad is his Baptist purgatory.  Yes, acceptance, when you are present and acceptance when you are absent from the body. Joey wants rejection of the person to be an alternative to his narrow view of acceptance here. Still, we see here the acceptance of our labour and its subsequent rewards, whether good-gold, silver, precious stones or bad-wood, hay, stubble. -- Herb Evans

 

The above words are all plain enough. My opponents must explain them away. These are just a few of the MANY Scriptures that are expounded upon in detail in my book. The attempts by Herb to duck them would be laughable, if the issue was not so serious. -- Joey Faust    

 

Herb is not ducking nor explaining them away. Herb rejects Joey's pontification of Joey's last day comments and is pointing out how Joey Faust is forcing believers in the lake of  fire into these passages, when they are not there and are not mentioned. Why does one need to duck inferences and innuendo and interpolations and misused proof texts about things not there? -- Herb Evans

 

9. Herb writes: "The modus operandi of Faust is to use imaginative parabolic teaching, allegorical comments, obscure O.T. passages, Gospel exchanges (in which it is not always easy to know who is meant unless you have a false teaching you want to prove), innuendo, inference, suggestion, intimidating pontification, and almost every 'Lose Your Salvationist' proof text of the Arminians to attempt to convince his readers of his heresy."

 

Here Herb wants the reader to think [Joey the mind reader] that the warnings in the Lord's parables are not literal. Yet my book proves that when Jesus gives a parabolic warning, the warning is literal, though it is framed in figures (Jesus shows us how to interpret parables in Matthew 13. The judgments in the parables are always literal). Herb does not document where I have used "allegorical comments." He also did not document where I used "obscure O.T. passages." It is very easy to know WHO is meant in the "Gospel exchanges" I used in my book, as long as one BELIEVES Scripture. A person may not LIKE what he finds. But this is nothing new. In Mark 9, Jesus is talking to JOHN. In Matthew 5, Jesus is talking to DISCIPLES whom He calls the light of the world and salt of the earth and children of their Father. He later commands His disciples to teach these earlier teachings to all the Gentiles (Matthew 28). As far as the "lose your salvation" proof-texts, Herb has never been able to deal with them in any other manner than by attempting to neutralize them with opposing Scriptures which teach eternal security. But this only ends in a "draw." My book shows that these Scriptures mean exactly what they say, but that they refer to the Millennial Kingdom (for example, read through Mark 9 and see how the "kingdom" is the context, not the Last Day of eternity—John 12). -- Joey Faust

 

My statements here were general appraisals of Joey Faust’s modus operandi, which is to suggest Christians go to the lake of fire by using the above methodology. Joey Faust never demonstrates this with concrete, plain, easy to understand proof texts, because he does not have any. We will see whether these things were said to John and the disciples per the context. Joey must of necessity use parabolic comparisons to explain away the Saviour’s promises and guarantees to the born again saint. Here, Joey is desperately trying to get Herb Evans into kingdom exclusion to avoid Joey’s heretical doctrine of Christians burning in the lake of fire. Why would Joey be so concerned about the saints being excluded from the kingdom and  hardly at all concerned about saints escaping the lake of fire?  Has Joey no burden about saved believers going to the lake of fire? Lose your salvationists use Joey’s same proof texts to prove that you can lose your salvation but even they would not dream of teaching that you still have eternal life  as you enter the lake of fire. --Herb Evans  

 

10. Herb writes: "Our approach to Joey Faust's heresy is not to try to explain every one of his suggestive proof text spins, although we have answered more than a few, either here or in another writing..."

 

We do not believe Herb is ABLE to deal with these proof-texts in any real way, other than to make a few brief statements or emotional jabs. At times he uses hyper-dispensationalism [my hyperdispensational opponents would really get a kick out of this charge], at other times he uses hyper-Calvinism [my Calvinist opponents would get another kick out of this charge], and at other times he simply says, "This is the passage that the lose your salvationists use."  In one article, Herb went through over 40 Scripture proof-texts and simply said to each: "There is nothing in the verse about the Lake of Fire." Herb did not take the time to EXPLAIN the verses. And he failed to realize that his "argument," would not only allow Christians to escape their warnings, but, if it had any real weight, would allow UNBELIEVERS to escape their own eternal warnings.
-- Joey Faust

 

Why explain what was not there? This was all that Herb needed to show that not one of Joey’s proof texts places born again Christians in the lake of fire. No explanation was needed to 40 verses that do not contain what Joey Faust alleges. Herb Evans’ style is to be brief, as opposed to Joey’s style of verbosity and verse flinging (often without any rationale), thinking that he will be heard for his much speaking. An example of this is Joey’s present lengthy treatise that I am now answering. Joey misinterprets the reluctance of many to not answer him as those, who do not have the answers. Their reluctance, rather, is due to the sheer volume of the lengthy discourse they must get into with him.  --Herb Evans

 

11. Herb writes: "Instead, we have taken the approach of pitting Joey Faust against the plain, clear, understandable promises of our Lord Himself..."

 

These promises of the Lord teach that the believer will be raised up to experience eternal life [you can't experience it now, according to Joey] on the LAST DAY (John 6), which Jesus Himself refers to the day lost people are also raised up to perish. Therefore, the LAST DAY is the day of the Great White Throne, which is AFTER the Millennium.

 

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the LAST DAY.

 

The LAST DAY is the day when lost Pharisees will be judged. This is the CONTEXT of the comforting resurrection promises (through belief alone) upon which Herb's arguments are based:

 

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the LAST DAY.  40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.             

 

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, HATH eternal life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.

 

          The context in every passage is FAITH ALONE, which allows a believer to live forever at the GREAT WHITE THRONE. But Hebrews teaches that there is another day called the SEVENTH DAY which we are to enter by faith and PATIENCE. It is the Millennium (Hebrews 4). Paul  labored to attain unto this early resurrection "if by any means" (Philippians 3:11). Herb never deals with such arguments in my book. It would mean that he would have to READ it. I do believe there will be others, with less apparent laziness, who will take the time to read the book.    -- Joey Faust 

 

So, what have we here? Soul sleep? Purgatory? Does Joey mean that every believer  will not “EXPERIENCE” eternal life until the last day? Even the ones that have survived the JSOC? Or was Jesus just talking about the carnal ones? Joey can't have it both  ways, an early last day resurrection and a late last day resurrection. But Herb Evans  was not merely talking about resurrection promises. Herb Evans refers to many more promises of eternal life than Joey PICKS AND CHOOSES here. Here again, Joey wants to get into the kingdom discussion in order to avoid the promises of God to believers then and NOW in regard to eternal life, which are often promised in the present  tense (HATH)--not like Joey’s futuristic views of eternal life. --Herb Evans

 

But to get back to Herb's above point: -- Joey Faust

 

By all means, please do so without all the verbose, peripheral rhetoric. -- Herb Evans

 

He has now CONTRADICTED HIMSELF. Over and over again he has stated that warnings in the Gospels cannot apply to true believers today; yet he has already told us that his MAIN APPROACH in refuting the book is to use PROMISES OF JESUS TO HIS DISCIPLES [BELIEVERS would be a better word in line with Herb's view and of course this does not mean that ALL warnings are that]! Can the reader now see the double-tongued folly in much of the fundamental scholarship of this generation? at least as it pertains to the Lord's warnings? We are to ignore the Lord's warnings to the salt of the earth and light of the world (even though Matthew 28 teaches that these warnings are to be taught to baptized converts), yet we are to then form a blockade against the other warnings throughout the New Testament by appealing to SWEET PROMISES that JESUS GAVE to the SALT OF THE EARTH and LIGHT OF THE WORLD!  --Joey Faust

 

Wrong! No hell fire for believers. Without contradiction or inconsistency, the warnings in the Gospels that Joey interprets hell for believers cannot apply to true believers in that time period or now, for Jesus gave them promises of ETERNAL LIFE in the GOSPELS. Try again ol’ boy. Now the warnings could apply to the mixed group. You know “if the shoe fits . . .” – Herb Evans     

                                                                    

12. Herb writes: "The unmitigated gall and arrogance of Joey Faust to suggest that some believers, who have spent more than 1900 hundred years in heaven will find out that they must go to the lake of fire and hell at the judgment seat, staggers our imagination."

 

             Herb offers no proof that DISOBEDIENT Christians die and go to Heaven. Many of the most popular, early Baptists did not believe that ANY Christian died and went to Heaven (J.R. Graves, etc.). They believed they still went to the heart of the earth (paradise). I will allow [Oh, thank you, Massa Faust] that faithful, overcoming Christians may go to a place in the Heavens (Acts 7:59). 

 

But where is Herb's evidence that CARNAL Christians, who do not repent, will go to Heaven when they die? Furthermore, EVEN IF THEY DID, what evidence is this that they will not one day face true judgment in the BODY? Does future judgment render present mercy and comfort automatically out of bounds? Was not David's sins of adultery and murder "put away"? Yet, did not he still face FUTURE consequences? Is not Satan, who has been pronounced guilty of rebellion, still free to roam the earth in the present? Yet, is not he also destined for future punishment and torment? The objection PROVES nothing. It is a weak limb to attempt to nullify clear warnings by such reasonings. --Joey Faust

 

AHA! What have we here? Did you catch that? Joey believes that ONLY SOME Christians die and go to heaven.  This is sounding more and more like purgatory. Here is what Joey is trying to tell us in full scenario. The carnal Christian dies and goes to the heart of the earth in paradise. The non-carnal Christian goes to heaven to be with the emptied paradise saints. At the JSOC The Christian is raised in his new body, but the carnal Christian is raised from the heart of the earth in his mortal body [old body?] or some other kind of body, despite Joey's uncertainty about this in other places]. This body is  to be slain at the JSOC (SECOND DEATH?) and thrown in the Lake of fire.  He is not to be left there to be with the  false prophet and devil but taken out and placed in a subterranean hell until after the 1000 year kingdom, where he is finally resurrected at the last day. It is amazing the lengthy science fiction that Joey dreams up to maintain his heretical views. Then Joey has the nerve to ask Herb Evans for proof. From the very title of Joey's book, the “ROD,” Joey confuses earthly chastisement of the believer with heavenly and/or prophetic chastisement of the believer. He does not have a clue here. Herb has nothing to prove for Herb has the scripture for earthly chastisement. The burden of proof of some other kind of heavenly chastisement must fall on Joey.  -- Herb Evans

 

13. We have now dealt with Herb's introduction. [all this for just my intro?] Herb opens his book with the following Scripture: "And death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged EVERY MAN according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. -- Rev 20:13, 14"        

 

            Yet, this Scripture is quoted repeatedly in my book, since it reveals to a King James Bible believer that HELL is not the place of absolute eternal torment for the lost. It is a temporary place of judgment until after the Millennium. This Scripture is dealing with the Last Day, when no believer will be separated from Jesus [implying that some will be separated from Jesus, despite Jesus promise to the contrary] and the bliss of eternity. -- Joey Faust

 

Joey places believers at the white throne judgment after they are taken out of Joey’s hell. Joey convolutes believers and unbelievers together, both whom he gets into the Lake of fire and into a temporary hell afterwards, Joey has everybody coming out hell at this White Throne juncture. Although, Joey still manages to  get believers out of the Lake of fire, before the devil and the false prophet get in there. The lost, who are in hell already have nothing to do with the millennium. Joey has managed, single handedly, to make the biggest convoluted mess, since the JW’s. The worst part for Joey is that it is so convoluted that his follower wanna be’s cannot even follow it. -- Herb Evans

 

14. Herb writes: "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? (Joey Faust)...Who is he that condemneth? (Joey Faust). It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also MAKETH INTERCESSION FOR US. Who shall SEPARATE us from the Love of Christ? (Joey Faust) ...For I am persuaded, that neither death nor life (nor Joey Faust although he tries) shall be able to SEPARATE us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus.  -- Rom. 8:33-39"

 

Chastisement at the Judgment Seat and banishment from the Lord during the Millennium do not separate us from Christ's love. The Scripture is given to refute the Satanic suggestion that TRIALS are a proof that God does not love us or that He is against us (Philippians 1:28). Yet, the manner in which Herb is using it (to try to prove that God will not temporarily kill or banish some saints) actually proves TOO MUCH. For it would not only contradict the doctrine that God can chastise and kill some saints at the JUDGMENT SEAT; it would contradict the doctrine that God can and does make some saints sick, and kill others, IN THIS LIFE (1 Corinthians 11, etc.)! But the chastising rod is rather a proof of God's love, than a denial of it:

 

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the LORD LOVETH he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

 

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that LOVETH him chasteneth him betimes. 

 

If it can be proven that correction and chastisement extend to the Judgment Seat of Christ, then we would only have to examine its nature in this life to know what may occur there. When we look in the Bible, we find that correction in this life is often sickness, pain and death! It therefore follows that these things are not against the love of Christ and the Father. If they are not against the love of Christ now, in this day of His longsuffering, temporary death will not be against the love of Christ when He returns to JUDGE HIS PEOPLE. -- Joey Faust

 

Did you catch the switcheroo from my words? Joey wants no part of the believers' promise not to be SEPARATED from the love of God. Joey switches from that separation to CHASTISEMENT, imagining that earthly chastisement continues into a second prophetic or future chastisement or double jeopardy. Joey gleefully changes the earthly corrective chastisement into JSOC punishment. What needs correction at the JSOC? The blood bought soul? The new sinless body? Joey is a joke, and does not have a clue here.      -- Herb Evans           

 

15. Herb writes: "....all contrary to the Bible, since only believers' works are burned."

 

Herb imagines a judgment where WORKS may be burned [that is what it says], yet the man who committed the works is not harmed. He therefore invents only a figurative judgment! The fact that the Bible uses figures does not mean that the judgment will be figurative. Matthew 13 reveals that parables and figures are always literal as they relate to judgment. Notice the Scripture in 1 Corinthians 3:

 

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood hay stubble; ?? 1 Cor. 3:11, 12 (Joey Faust)

 

          These verses are discussing a foundation, and that foundation is Jesus Christ. The foundation is eternal life in Him and not temporary life. The foundation cannot be any kind of works and NO MAN can lay any other foundation than Jesus Christ, who in Himself is eternal life. Moreover, this foundation is settled and done by the JSOC, with nothing that can be added or subtracted in regard to salvation and eternal life. Joey lays another foundation. – Herb Evans

 

            1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  - 1 Cor. 3:13 (Joey Faust)

 

          This verse teaches us that EVERY man's WORK shall be made manifest, which has the foundation of Jesus Christ and the salvation/eternal life that is in Him. Every man may build, on this foundation, valuable WORKS and worthless WORKS--all represented by metaphors of Gold, silver, precious stones and wood, hay, and stubble. Nevertheless, the worthless works are burned, despite Joey's "figurative" straw man. The fire is real, and it tries (the word Joey likes for judgment) TO TEST WHAT SORT IT IS. Every man's WORKS--not the man.  The worthy works are rewarded; the worthless works are burned.    --Herb Evans

 

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. --1 Cor. 3:14 (Joey Faust)  

 

Only the WORKS of Gold, silver, and precious stones will stand the test and abide. The passage is still talking about works and reward-not punishment, chastisement, nor stripes. It is talking about the works that a believer has built on the foundation of Christ FOR REWARD not punishment. Note the term ANY MAN'S WORK, not just the carnal or the non carnal.  --Herb Evans     

 

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. -- 1 Cor. 3:15 (Joey Faust)

 

First, Paul plainly says the MAN will be saved, yet so as by FIRE. The fact that the fire tried the works does not mean that literal DIVINE fire will not hurt the MAN [nor does it mean that the fire will hurt the man]. Herb does not read the passage to its completion. -- Joey Faust

 

The wood hay, and stubble will burn up and cause its owner LOSS. Herb's carnal man is saved so as by fire. Joey's carnal man is destroyed so as by fire. Joey's has already told us that. He can't have it both ways. Joey's verses talk about WORKS being burned NOT people. It is “ANY man" that  suffers LOSS--not DEATH! And it is “ANY man” that is REWARDED. He himself shall be saved NOT DESTROYED here (note that the spirit of the Corinthian  fornicator was to be saved not destroyed in the day of Jesus Christ or JSOC). Yes, he shall be saved so as by FIRE, just as eight souls were saved BY water, during the Flood. The water did not save them, and neither did the fire save them. The ARK (Christ) saved them. The passage does mean that the fire will NOT hurt the man, unless Joey can produce in this verse any evidence that it does. That burden is on Joey not on those, who properly interpret the passage. -- Herb Evans

 

        There are a Number of Things that Joey Did Not Notice in this Verse:

 

1. Work and works alone are the topic. Gold, silver, precious stones and wood,  hay, and stubble works, which are built on the Christ foundation and salvation.

 

2. Every man's work shall be made manifest or known, not just the carnal.

 

3. The day of Christ shall declare it of these pure and blameless ones. (Phil. 1:6, 10; 2:16; 1 Cor. 1:8; 5:5*; 2 Cor. 1:14). Even fornicating and incestuous  Christians are saved in that day (1 Cor. 5:5).

 

4. Fire REVEALS EVERY MAN's earthly works.

 

5. Fire TRIES EVERY MAN's earthly works.

 

6. EVERY MAN'S  WORK is tried, not merely the carnal man's works.

 

7. EVERY  MAN has a NEW BODY, whether previously carnal or not.

 

8. The WORK is tried to determine of what SORT it is. Gold? Silver? Hay? Stubble?

9. No believer is tried in this verse.

 

10. No punishment or stripes occur in these verses.

 

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? -- 1 Cor. 3:16,  (Joey Faust)

 

Joey's skill in force connecting unrelated passages together is surpassed only by his inability to exegete passages. He would rather force innuendo and inference into them. Note the passage suggests that  these carnal Corinthians might not know that they "ARE" the temple of God and that their CARNAL BODIES housed the Holy Spirit. This is not a futuristic statement about the JSOC. -- Herb Evans  

 

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God DESTROY; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. -- 1 Cor. 3:17, Joey Faust

 

Verse 17 INTERPRETS the figure! He that defiles his temple (bringing forth only wood, hay and stubble) will be DESTROYED. Here it is not the WORKS that are destroyed, but the MAN. "Destroyed" does not mean annihilated. It answers to the "yet so as by fire," which is not figurative. Jesus uses the same approach (framing LITERAL fire judgments in parables) in Matthew 13, where He warns the wicked. Verse 17 of 1 Corinthians 3, reveals that we are dealing with the same type of Biblical warning to believers. -- Joey Faust

 

Notice that Paul shifts from the JSOC to the Corinthians, who were on earth at the time. The only thing that gets destroyed is on earth, the Christian's vile body is the temple, and nothing is said here to indicate any destruction by fire. It is interpolated by Joey Faust. Wood, hay, and stubble does not get the Christian temple destroyed here on earth, earthly chastisement does that. Nor is there any defilement of his new body. Wood, hay, and stubble as well as the gold, silver and precious stones are acquired at the JSOC not in Corinth. What temple is named here? The temple that is at Corinth or an inferred temple at the JSOC (which is new and indestructible)? The warning is to the Corinthians as to chastisement here on earth not the future. No need for Joey's straw man--“figurative versus literal” argument. No hell here. No Lake of fire! No JSOC stripes! Only Joey's vivid imagination. -- Herb Evans

 

16. Herb writes: "Faust even REVERSES the biblical order of hell's occupants being cast into the lake of fire TO the lake of fire occupants being cast into hell, all without the benefit of scripture."

 

Herb only imagines this because he is attempting to refute a book which he will not READ. My book reveals that God is a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24, Hebrews 12:29, Isaiah 30:33, etc.). His fiery breath will light the flame that will one day become the Lake of Fire. To stand before His THRONE in judgment, is to stand before His fiery breath. Therefore, carnal Christians will first meet with this FLAME (cut asunder), before they are temporarily banished (with the unbelievers).   -- Joey Faust

 

Despite all of Joey’s speculation, interpolation, and pontification, Joey still can't get born again Christians into the Lake of fire except by suggestion. The fact that our God is a consuming fire is believed by Joey’s opponents; they merely challenge Joey to prove that will be the fate of ANY Christian. Joey is like a Campbellite, who sees baptism every time he sees water. Joey sees the Lake of fire for carnal Christians every time that he sees "fire” or “burning” or “flame.” -- Herb Evans

 

17. Herb writes: "Contrary to Faust's view, all death and hell inhabitants will be cast into the lake of fire after THEY are JUDGED at the Great White Throne."         

 

This is the main problem with Herb's objections. He hardly ever grounds them in Scripture. He uses the word "all" in the above statement. But notice what the BIBLE actually states:

 

Revelation 20:15 And WHOSOEVER WAS NOT found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

Herb ignores the above qualification. The phrase implies that there will be some people found in the Book of Life at this time. It is only in the new heaven and the new earth (after the Millennium) that we are told that there will be no more pain and death (Revelation 21:4). At the GWTJ, there will people who come up out of Hell (underworld) that ARE in the Book of Life. They are raised up according to Christ's promises in John 6 concerning the LAST DAY. -- Joey Faust

 

Joey is struggling in desperation, arguing in a circle. Rev. 20:15 refers to unbelievers that are not in the Book of Life. All believers are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.  Since all unbelievers are not written in this book of life, all hell’s inhabitants are cast into the lake of fire. The need for further explanation is only required, when you are fabricating a "Believers into hell with unbelievers" scenario. For the record, let it be shown that Joey believes that believers are in hell with unbelievers, and that these believers are not written in the Lamb’s Book of life, because they are blotted out of it but somehow carnal believers get put back in it in order not to get thrown in the lake of fire again with their companion unbelievers from hell at the GWTJ.        
          Now, Joey has believers thrown in the lake of fire at the JSOC BEFORE the 1000 years, and then they are taken out of the lake of fire and placed in the subterranean hell with unbelievers for the remainder of the 1000 years. Then, Joey takes unbelievers out of hell and throws them in the lake of fire after the Great White Throne judgment, and believers then get eternal life. Joey does all this without a shred of supporting scripture, except that which his opponents have always used to support their views. Is your head spinning yet? -- Herb Evans

 

18. Herb writes: "The Unconditional Promises to ALL JSOC Believers....For ye ARE DEAD, and your life is HID with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then SHALL ye also appear with him IN GLORY. Col. 3:3, 4."

 

Again, Herb assumes this promise is without conditions. The verses before and after the verses Herb quoted reveal that this promise is conditional:

 

Colossians 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. 5 Mortify THEREFORE your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:      

 

Here we are told that believers should set their affection on things above. They should mortify their members since God PUNISHES these sins. Paul continues in the following verses to state the conditions (explaining how a holy life will be manifested). He then concludes this chapter with the following warning to these saints: -- Joey Faust

 

Again, Joey turns instructions into conditions exactly as a Campbellite does. Joey puts "works" conditions on salvation and eternal life. The only things in Joey’s passages are instructions--NOT CONDITIONS. The only conditions for salvation and continued eternal life are real  repentance and belief on Christ. We are Baptists--not Charismatics and not Catholics. How much more do you need to see to know that Joey Faust is a heretic?  There are no conditions to being dead and having one’s life hid in Christ. Instructions to practical mortification are just like practical sanctification. They follow and reflect the positional position. -- Herb Evans

 

Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But HE THAT DOETH WRONG SHALL RECEIVE for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

 

The CONTEXT is the appearing of Christ when some shall receive the reward of the inheritance. This passage teaches that some saints will appear in glory and others will be rewarded according to their disobedience!: -- Joey Faust

 

You have to watch Joey, like a hawk, when he says something. There is no appearing of Christ in this context. This is a Joey Faust interpolation. Automatically, Joey jumps to the JSOC here.  If it is the JSOC, it could easily be explained as REWARD for service (in the context). Then it would be gold, silver, precious stones for good service and RECEIPT of wrong service-wood, hay, and stubble. Still we expect that much reward of  both good and bad are received here on earth. Still, you must have the inheritance to get the rewards of inheritance. -- Herb Evans

 

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good OR BAD. -- Joey Faust

 

Now Joey is cooking. This really is a direct reference to the JSOC. Here we will receive the things done in the body, i.e., WORKS (good works and  bad works). Good rewards are gold, silver, precious stones. Bad rewards are wood, hay, stubble.  Joey, like a Campbellite, sees punishment in these passages, but the topic is rewards. --Herb Evans

 

            1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.        

 

We are told elsewhere that all believers do not appear in glory at the Lord's appearing. Some saints will be ashamed at this time: -- Joey Faust

 

Oh? Does it really say that, Joey? So, Joey pontificates that being ashamed and not appearing are synonymous terms. This verse does not bar ANY Christian from glory. It makes a distinction between those ashamed and those not ashamed. Where did you learn to interpret scripture, Joey? -- Herb Evans

 

19. Herb writes: ". . . whether we wake or sleep, we should live TOGETHER with him. -- 1 Thess. 5:10 . . . . For  God hath NOT appointed us to WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live TOGETHER with him. Wherefore COMFORT yourselves TOGETHER . . . -- 1 Thess. 5:9-11 . . . concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, even as others which have no hope . . .Wherefore COMFORT one another with these words. -- 1 Thess. 4:13, 18."   

 

Herb fails to read the word SHOULD in verse 10 of 1 Thessalonians chapter 5. It is used in this passage the same way Peter uses it:  -- Herb Evans

 

Methinks Joey needs a course in Old English and the way that the word “should” is used. Whatever is meant here, it is comfort to those, who have lost loved ones to death. How in the world could they know, whether their love ones had enough to live TOGETHER with Christ or enough to prohibit that togetherness. Joey is again telegraphing his view that some Christians do not go to heaven, when they die.  God hath not appointed US TO WRATH, Joey! Did you hear that? This shows the lengths of scripture corruption that Joey will go to in order to maintain his heresy. Others have no hope, like Joey, but we do have this hope and can  say “we” or “us.” Joey, the apostle of uncertainty is implying that this should happen, but may not. Well, Joey might also corrupt Rev. 20:3, where the devil SHOULD deceive the nations and the thousand years SHOULD be fulfilled. With Joey’s interpretation skills, these things may not happen.  -- Herb Evans

 

1 Peter 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto CALLED, that ye SHOULD inherit a blessing. 10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: 11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. -- Joey Faust

 

Joey misses a big difference in the way Peter’s uses the word “should” in the word "that." That ye should receive a blessing. No fire here! No Lake of fire here! No hell here! Just a discussion, regarding instructions and blessings. --Herb Evans
 

20. Herb writes:  ". . .him that cometh to me I will in NO WISE  [No way, Jose`!]  CAST OUT. . . that of all which he hath given me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should RAISE it up again the last day . . .     --John 6:37, 39"        

 

            Herb should see that the "coming" is defined as believing in this chapter. It is discussing eternal life.  -- Joey Faust

 

 Joey thinks Christ only should lose nothing and does not answer; he just says something. It is, indeed,  discussing eternal life, and coming is believing. So, a person is not cast out in regard to eternal life, when he believes or comes. Herb Evans is not the one having a problem believing this as well as the part about not being CAST OUT, for Herb Evans believes eternal life is eternal life and not temporary life or partial life. Joey has that problem, for Joey gets the Christian CAST out. Those given to Christ are never cast out, for Christ promised to LOSE NOTHING. And they shall NEVER PERISH or be plucked out of the Father's hand (John 10:28). The GIFT of God is eternal life, which needs be continuous life not Joey Faust's YO YO life (Rom. 6:23). He that hath the Son HATH LIFE (1 John 5:11,12). Joey is saying either the carnal Christian, who has Christ, does not have life or else the carnal Christian, who does have life, does not have Christ. The condition (Joey likes conditions) here is having the Son or not having the Son.  -- Herb Evans

 

             The promise is qualified by the LAST DAY. This is the Great White Throne (John 12). This promise no more negates chastisement during the Millennium than it negates scourging in this life (1 Corinthians 11). I therefore fully accept the literal words of the promise and use it as one of the main proof-texts in my book! It shows that by faith alone we are only promised a resurrection unto eternal life on the Last Day.  -- Joey Faust

 

No, Joey, the promise is not qualified; it is AMPLIFIED to include the resurrection body. There is no chastisement for Christians at the JSOC or during the millennium. This “last day” qualification is a figment of Joey's imagination that he cannot support with scripture. He can only try to force and interconnect unrelated passages to attempt to force his heresy upon us, pontificating all the way. -- Herb Evans

 

21. Herb writes: "....I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee ....Hebrew 13:5"

 

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

 

Since God Himself is such a rich blessing, we do not need to covet or fear MAN. Yet, the whole Epistle contains many WARNINGS about fearing GOD and His coming day of judgment! Again we call attention to this double-minded approach to Scripture. We have been told that we can ignore the warnings in Hebrews. Yet, Herb is quick to claim the sweet PROMISES in Hebrews. -- Joey Faust          

 

You just ain’t whistling Dixie, when you say Herb is quick to claim the sweet promises in Hebrews--as quick as Joey is to reject them. Herb also pays attention to the warnings of Hebrews, rightly dividing them, but rejects the warnings of Joey Faust as the rantings of a heretic. -- Herb Evans

 

God will not forsake His people eternally. -- Joey Faust

 

Get a load of this weasel wording. What Joey means here is that he WILL FORSAKE THEM TEMPORARILY in the lake of fire. No, Joey, God said NEVER! Do you know what that means in the Greek? NEVER!   -- Herb Evans

 

But He WILL JUDGE them (Hebrews 10:26-31). Furthermore, a comforting promise that God will not forsake His people in relation to their enemies should NEVER be interpreted to mean God will not JUDGE His own severely: -- Joey Faust

 

We are disappointed again, when we look up Joey’s proof-texts, for they say nothing of the JSOC, the Lake of Fire, or hell. Judgment and punishment, yes, but where and when? Who said anything about “enemies?” Joey inserts the time and place for us by interpolation and pontification. We explain Hebrews 10 elsewhere. NEVER, NEVER! Odd that Joey does not see all that he must explain away. Even odder is when he uses O.T. examples, who went straight to PARADISE without the JSOC and then to heaven, even as now, N.T. Christians also go to heaven, when they die. Oh, yes, Joey only believes that part of them go to heaven. -- Herb Evans

 

Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

 

Would anyone dare argue that GOD did not judge these people whom possessed this sweet promise (read all of 1 Corinthians 10!)? If we can be temporarily judged in this life, we may be temporarily judged on the DAY OF JUDGMENT. It is absurd to argue contrary to this fact. It is REBELLIOUS to use these promises in the manner that Herb is using them. This was the sin of Israel of old: -- Joey Faust

 

Jeremiah 7:4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.

 

Many in Israel tried to use their great privileges as a reason why they could not be temporarily punished. But at the time these rebels were called FALSE PROPHETS! --Joey Faust

 

Joey loves to make the rules as he goes. Joey's rule states that if we can be judged here, we can be judged the same way at the JSOC. If we can be chastised here, we can be chastised at the JSOC. We reject Joey's rules as well as his corrupt thinking. I heard Joey's lighting flashing and his thunder roar, NO NEVER ALONE! No never alone! NEVER, NEVER! NEVER FORSAKEN! We certainly would not argue that God did not, nor does not, nor shall judge his people. We would, however, argue Joey's apples and oranges of the JSOC versus earthly chastisement. Herb is merely believing God and taking him at His word as opposed to what Joey Faust is doing in explaining God's promises away. We doubt whether we are trusting LYING WORDS of the Lord. The key word, Joey, is temporal punishment on this earth. The Lord does exactly the same thing now as then. You play and you pay. But this has nothing to do with the heresy that Joey Faust is pushing.  -- Herb Evans           

 

22. Herb wrote: "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you UNTO MYSELF; that where I am, THERE [with Christ] ye may be also. --John 14:2, 3"

 

Herb did not mention the previous verse which contains the CONDITION:

 

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

 

He is talking to disciples who already believe on Him as Saviour (John 6). He is calling for them to believe upon Him as an abiding source of strength against the Devil's temptations. This promise is no more unconditional than the comforting promise Jesus gave in the next few verses:     -- Joey Faust

 

Now Joey conditions his continuous eternal life on not letting your heart be troubled. This gets worse as we go along. There is no condition attached to Christ preparing a place for believers nor coming and receiving those believers. It is unconditional. Joey is speaking from his split rapture ideology. The only condition is salvation, and that conditioned on believing on Christ. As far as we know, Judas was one of this audience that did not do that.  -- Herb Evans

 

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 AND whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

This promise is NOT unconditional: 

 

John 15:7 IF ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Furthermore, these same disciples that are comforted in 14:1-3, are also warned of being cut off in 15:1-6! -- Joey Faust

 

Notice Joey Faust inability to exegete these verses. This verse has nothing to do with being raptured nor escaping the lake of fire nor being slain at the JSOC. It has to do with asking and receiving and doing great works. This is but the madness of this prophet, Joey Faust, who is saying that some born again folk do not abide in Christ. Well, let us put this to the test and get Joey to pray for something specific. If it does not happen, then Joey is not abiding in Christ, and he will be killed at the JSOC, and we should not listen to him. -- Herb Evans           

 

23. Herb writes: "Yet, it is clear that Joey Faust insists that the Lord's promises of mercy and grace to believers do NOT EXTEND to the JSOC."

 

My book is clear that the promises of grace and mercy, in regard to eternal salvation, extend to eternity! Yet, there are other promises of grace and mercy, in regard to blessings in this life, and blessings at the Judgment Seat and the Millennium, which are CONDITIONAL. In many places, the Bible states that mercy is given to those who FEAR GOD and forgive their brethren (Psalms 33:18, 103:11, Luke 1:50, James 2:13). We should therefore not presume upon God and conclude that mercy at the Judgment Seat is automatic, without some qualifications.  --Joey Faust

 

More weasel wording. This what Joey does. He plays hop scotch to the other scriptures, never showing his views in context of the disputed passages. The above comments are completely irrelevant to the issue of God's mercy and grace to the believer in the matter of continuous eternal life to EVERY true believer, including the JSOC and beyond.-- Herb Evans

 

24. Herb writes: "Yet Christ PROMISES NEVER to leave any born-again believer nor to forsake any born-again believer nor to cast any believer out or into hell or into the lake of fire."

 

There is no such statement anywhere in the Word of God. There are verses which Herb tries to INTERPRET to say this. Yet, when examined they only promise that God will raise the believer up unconditionally on the LAST DAY. They do not promise exemption from temporary scourging, either in this life, or at the Judgment Seat. – Joey Faust

 

Look at the pot calling the kettle black. Show us the scripture where God CASTS believers in the lake of fire or where God SLAYS believers at the JSOC or that God even gives stripes at the JSOC. My promise is in scripture, He will NOT cast ME out. He will never leave me nor forsake me. Joey does not have this promise, according to his own comments. Moreover, he denies the promises by explaining them away. I would not give 2 cents for Joey's salvation. He has absolutely NO ASSURANCE that he will not be cast into the lake of fire. -- Herb Evans

 

25. Herb writes: "It is not a message of Faust gloom, doom, and uncertainty. We are told to SORROW NOT."

 

Yet, if my view is incorrect, and Herb's view is correct, every Christian had better start examining his works in detail and doing everything in his power to endure until the end and hope that on his death-bed he can say, "I do now, after looking back over my whole life, have some confidence that I am not a false professor. But I cannot be sure until I stand before God. I may be deceiving myself about my degree of fruit-bearing." Therefore, since my view allows the verses to fully mean what they say to true Christians, it allows for absolute assurance apart from works. -- Joey Faust 

 

Joey telegraphs his lack of absolute faith and assurance apart from works. He must look at his works and life to determine if he gets the lake of fire or not, and then, Joey, like a Catholic, still does not know until the JSOC. We merely look at the cross and the crucified Saviour, knowing that He has washed us in His blood. That is absolute assurance apart from works. Joey view allows the possibility of him being a false professor; Joey can't know that until the judgment seat. How about the possibility of Joey being a false prophet as well? When will he find that out? He should ask me about it.  -- Herb Evans

 

We know we are saved and will be raised on the Last Day REGARDLESS of our degree of fruit-bearing. We are happy, yet we are also careful and watchful, since there will be a temporary time of severe judgment coming. After years of teaching this doctrine of the terror of the Lord, we asked our fellow church members what it has done for their lives. Almost every person replied that it gave them joy and full assurance since they know the warnings to Christians refer to the MILLENNIUM and not to ETERNITY. -- Joey Faust

 

Baloney, Joey’s crew are all walking on eggshells, unless they’ve adopted the idea of jumping over the moon by bringing the moon down low enough. There you have it in Joey’s own words. Joey is NOT SURE about his continuous salvation. He only has SOME CONFIDENCE that he is not a FALSE PROFESSOR. That  is why he ALLOWS for ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE only in the final outcome, despite his disclaimer of works for continuous salvation. Keep talking Joey; we are learning more and more about you.     -- Herb Evans

 

26. Herb writes:   "And WHOSOEVER liveth and believeth in me SHALL NEVER DIE     . . . --John 11:26."

 

This promise, if taken in the way Herb interprets it, would mean [says who] no believer can be slain by God in this life (1 Corinthians 11)! Yet, believers can be temporarily scourged with death in this life (the age of grace and mercy). They may certainly experience the same at the Judgment Seat (the day of reward according to works). The above promise is conditioned by the word LIVE. However, if one wishes to define "live" as positional life (instead of the daily walk of the believer, abiding in Christ), then the promise applies to the LAST DAY: -- Joey Faust

 

And Joey pretends to be a Bible teacher? Who died and left Joey to make these rules? Why does this apply to only the last day? Where is the contextual condition or qualification? What if these hearers didn’t know about Corinthians, which they didn’t (in Joey’s hop scotch referencing scheme)? Because Joey dictates to us that it is so? This kindergarten reasoning that we can no longer be chastised or killed by God in this life, if we don’t grant Joey his way in the next, is a disgrace. The lord is talking about the believers’ souls and spirits NOT their bodies. No wonder we mistook Joey to be a “soul sleeper” at first. -- Herb Evans         

 

            John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

It no more means that a believer may not perish during the Millennium than it means a believer may not perish in this life. Almost every other Scripture Herb quotes, simply promises a believer that he has eternal life and will be raised up on the LAST DAY. At other times, Herb quotes a promise that has manifest conditions and warnings in the same context! -- Joey Faust

 

Is Joey convinced that Martha was giving him the straight stuff, despite the Lord’s interjection? Or perhaps Martha was even convinced that Joey was right until the Lord corrected her, conveying to her that there were two considerations, the body and the soul. Now, does Joey put his resurrection on the last day at the GWTJ? We thought Joey was shooting for the first resurrection. Or does Joey not believe that there is to be a resurrection before the rapture and JSOC. Perhaps Martha did not. -- Herb Evans

 

27. Herb writes: "Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God. -- 1 John 3:9."

 

The manner in which Herb is interpreting this verse is Gnostic antinomianism at its worse! It is the very thing John is refuting! First, Herb's interpretation would not only deny that a believer could be scourged for sin at the Judgment Seat, it would also deny scourging in THIS LIFE. Yet, the NT is clear that believers can be scourged in this life for disobedience (1 Corinthians chapters 10 and 11). --Joey Faust

 

Here we go with Joey making up his own rules again per his own human, circular reasoning. Herb believes in earthly chastisement and finds nothing in this verse that remotely identifies with the JSOC or lake of fire. Nor does Herb Evans find anything in the verse that obviates earthly chastisement. This is a Joey Faust spin zone. The verse teaches that "whosoever" is born of God CANNOT SIN. The only alternative to Joey, here, is that if Joey CAN sin, he is not born of God. Of course Joey could take the modern version way out and say that it means cannot practice sin. Well, let us see where Joey goes with it. Obviously, he tried to cover not answering Herb Evans by charging him with antinomianism.
-- Herb Evans

 

The phrase "born of God" does not mean, in John's 1st Epistle, what it means in the Gospel of John. John is referring in his 1st Epistle to the believer's daily WALK with God. "Born of God" is used in the same sense in which Paul uses "walk in the Spirit." The word "born" is used in 1st John in the same way the word "borne" is sometimes used. John's point is that NO ONE (saved or lost) should ever say that they are walking with God if they are not walking with God! John REFUTES the idea that God does not care about outward works. If we sin, John is arguing that GOD DID NOT PRODUCE IT. We are NOT walking in the Spirit when we sin:   -- Joey Faust

 

          Two different new births? We have only one comment for this denial and distortion of scripture. HA HA HA, HO HO HO, HAR HAR HAR CHUCKLE, CHUCKLE CHUCKLE, HEE HEE HEE! Joey has a better rendering; Bible correctors could do no better than Joey. Thank you Jesus! Does I have a witness? -- Herb Evans

 

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Therefore, Herb's use of this verse means nothing. The verse is simply saying that any believer who is in fellowship with God, will not be walking in sin: -- Joey Faust

 

Wow! Did you see that stretch? Carnal Christians do not even have the Holy Spirit under Joey’s terms, for you can-t know you are in Him or that He is in you apart from the Holy Spirit. What Joey is really saying is that our scripture means NOTHING, when Joey make the scriptures of none effect. Reader, do you see how far Joey is willing to go to justify his heresy? I really believe that Joey Faust never realized how far he would have to go to establish his doctrine. -- Herb Evans

 

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

 

Furthermore, Herb's interpretation of the verse would mean that God cannot even chastise or hold believers accountable to ANY DEGREE, at ANY TIME! Why would God take a crown away from a believer who was NOT committing any sin? Why would God withhold answered prayer from a believer who was perfect and without sin? Again, this is antinomianism gone mad! Jude warned us about this interpretation abounding among the fundamental brethren: -- Joey Faust

 

Now, how in the world does Joey arrive at the charge that we believe that God cannot hold believers accountable to any degree at any time. How about right now as opposed to waiting? That is not the issue, for God holds us accountable IN THIS LIFE for every sin. Nevertheless, all our sins are paid for in regard to eternal life and heaven. That is called grace and mercy! A believer can lie and a believer can "do not the truth" and can "walk in darkness." But to get to the lake of fire from there is a heresy. And to get a believer beaten with stripes and killed at the JSOC from here is pontification without a shred scripture. -- Herb Evans

 

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into LASCIVIOUSNESS, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 I will therefore put YOU in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having SAVED the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
-- Joey Faust

 

But did God put believers  in the lake of fire in this passage. Moreover, is it not true that God destroyed them (physically) that believed not, as opposed to than them that believed. Where's the JSOC or Lake of Fire? -- Herb Evans

 

28. Herb writes: "Follow HOLINESS . . .without which NO MAN shall SEE THE LORD. (Both BLESSED and HOLY, Rev. 20:6) --Heb. 12:14."

 

Herb is all over the place! This is my verse that proves my argument. But Herb quoted it wrong. It actually reads: [we forgot an ellipsis; perhaps, Joey does not know what an ellipsis is]

 

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: These are things which ALL believers do not do! The next verses elaborate: - Joey Faust

 

The point here is that no believer follows peace and holiness perfectly all the time, so therefore according to Faust’s rule, no one will see the Lord. Yet Joey has carnal Christians stand before the Lord at the JSOC. Will they have blind folds on? But Joey contradicts himself, for he believes that after the believers' trip to hell and the lake of fire, he resumes eternal life. Therefore, the carnal believer ultimately sees the Lord. How does the carnal Christian get holy? By staying in purgatory? Still, Joey does not grasp the fact that in the new body, all believers will POSSESS perfect HOLINESS and peace. -- Herb Evans

 

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

The believer that does not follow after peace and holiness, will not obtain his Millennial birthright. He will not see the Lord reigning in His Millennial glory.-- Joey Faust

 

Herb is all over the place? When Joey changes the subject of eternal life to the lake of fire to millennial exclusion? Stick to the subject of my comments, Joey. And I did not comment on the millennial kingdom, although I realize that Joey desperately wants to get into it. Inherited blessings are forced to mean the millennial kingdom? Wow! -- Herb Evans

 

29. Herb writes: "Born-again believers at the JSOC have everlasting life and are IN CHRIST. They will NEVER DIE again. They will be presented WITHOUT SPOT and WITHOUT WRINKLE and WITHOUT BLEMISH and FAULTLESS, for GOD IS ABLE to PRESENT them as such."

 

Herb has never been able to find any verse that teaches that some believers cannot be temporarily slain at the Judgment Seat. He has found many verses that speak of eternal salvation and resurrection on the LAST DAY. And we are thankful for them. We would have to embrace Arminianism if they were not present in the Bible. The fact that God is ABLE to present believers without spot and blemish at the Judgment Seat does not mean that every Christian will avail themselves of God's power!:            

 

            Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to PRESENT YOU holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 IF YE CONTINUE in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard...

 

IF only the many IF'S of Scripture were not ignored! -- Joey Faust

 

Herb has never found a verse that proves than the moon is not made of green cheese (except that cows were created after it). The burden of proof is on the people, who advocate such nonsense. Joey has never found a verse that gets believers killed at the JSOC. Ah! The Pauline “IF's,” “Lose your Salvationists” love them as much as does Joey Faust. Verse 20 and 21 state that Christ made peace through the blood of the cross and hath reconciled us former enemies (now believers) through death. True believers do continue in the FAITH and do not move away from the hope of the gospel. But Joey would have us believe that belief is the same as the carnality or sins of the believer. But then after all that being said, Joey ends up with believers at the end of their lake of fire and hell trip, who are still blameable and provable. The fact remains that a true believer NEVER becomes a non-believer in regard to salvation. False professors do, however. -- Herb Evans

 

30. Herb writes: "Still there are no carnal Christians at the JSOC, only blood bought, blood washed, pure, faultless, uncondemned, spotless, blameless, blessed, holy, NON dying believers."

 

Herb is obviously unaware that he has now ruled out ANY DISTINCTIONS at the Judgment Seat. Herb may be flabbergasted at our manifestation and exposition of the Bible's numerous warnings to believers. But I must admit that I am truly amazed at this statement by Herb. Here, Herb is showing that there is no middle ground. -- Joey Faust

 

No, Joey. Herb has not ruled out any distinctions at the JSOC. The distinctions are works of wood, hay, and stubble versus works of Gold, Silver, and precious stones. The distinctions are those of works for REWARDS and LOSS of works. If Joey sees any other distinctions in these DIRECT JSOC passages, let him please inform us. -- Herb Evans

 

He has backed himself into pure antinomianism in regard to a believer's walk. It was E.W. Bullinger who argued (to D.M. Panton's amazement) that "Church age" believers cannot be held accountable IN ANY DEGREE. -- Joey Faust

 

Herb Evans is not E.W. Bullinger nor is Herb Evans an antinomian. In fact Herb Evans has better convictions than many of Joey’s followers, including the one, who joined a dating service, while married and then ran around with the contact before his divorce and was shown the door upon entering a Baptist church, when he showed up with her. The believer is accountable for every sin. That is why we have confession of sins and self judgment here or else chastisement here. --Herb Evans        

 

            Herb now has EVERY believer FAULTLESS before the Judgment Seat of Christ! He was forced to back himself into this position. And like David, we will waste no time finishing him off while he is down (1 Samuel 17:52).  Herb has confused the Judgment Seat of Christ with the Great White Throne. He has confused positional righteousness with practical righteousness. He has confused salvation in eternity with the "well done" at the Judgment Seat! Will all believers be faultless, blameless and spotless at the Judgment Seat of Christ?! Notice how the New Testament REFUTES Herb's above statement:

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved BLAMELESS unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, BE DILIGENT that ye MAY be FOUND OF HIM in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

Should not every pastor or church planting missionary pray the same for the flock? But is it true that EVERY believer WILL be presented blameless on that day? If so, why would Paul, or any pastor, pray for such a thing? Is Paul praying that the Thessalonians will get saved?! Are they not saved already? -- Joey Faust

 

The only one that is confused is the one that thinks believers will appear before the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT THRONE. Believers only appear before the JUDGMENT SEAT of Christ. If Joey will show us one believer that is sinless, without spot, or blameless in his so called PRACTICAL righteousness, we will concede the whole matter. Joey confuses the ideal with the real. He confuses what we should shoot for as opposed to what really is. Joey lowers the standard, rather than raises it. The higher standards are “whatsoever is not of faith is sin,” and “he that doubted is damned.” -- Herb Evans

 

If we are to be diligent that we MAY be found of Him without spot, then it follows that SOME believers will appear less than perfect when He appears. The various parables of our Lord make this clear, as well as numerous Scriptures in the Epistles.--Joey Faust

 

Some believers--less than perfect? You mean some will be perfect at the JSOC. How did the perfect ones without spot get perfect and without spot? And how did the imperfect ones get imperfect with spots. Is that something that is distinguishable now?  -- Herb Evans

 

31. Herb writes: "Believers' souls will be without sin at the judgment seat of Christ. Their sins? past, present, and future? are forgiven and are paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ."

 

Mr. Evans offers no Scripture to back up the assumption that believer's souls will be without sin at the Judgment seat. It is a transitional, parenthetical event. The vain excuses of the unprofitable servant imply otherwise. Nevertheless, believers will not be tried and judged at the Judgment Seat for sins they are committing on that day.    

 

They are standing trial for the things done in the body when they lived on earth (2 Corinthians 5:9-11). Every sin in a believer is paid for as far as eternity is concerned. Yet, as far as daily fellowship, answered prayer, and Millennial rewards, these blessings may be forfeited by sin! Forgiveness is conditioned upon things such as confession (1 John 1:9-10), and showing mercy to others (Matthew 6:12). -- Joey Faust

 

Did you get that? Joey doesn’t even believe your soul is free from sin let alone your new body. What did Christ die for?  You now have to do what I did as a Lutheran, confess your sins and show mercy to keep in a state of grace and freedom from sin on your soul. And some of you people wonder why I call Joey Faust a heretic. If Joey says that he has NO SIN, Joey deceives himself and the truth is not in Joey (1 John 1:8), which we already know. --Herb Evans

 

32. Herb writes: "As far as God is concerned, the believer's new nature does not sin and CANNOT sin (1 John 3:9)."

 

What mystical mumbo-jumbo! It is not the "new nature" that will be standing trial at the Judgment Seat! The CHRISTIAN will be standing trial to reveal the degree that he availed himself of the new nature!: --Joey Faust

 

Well, it is the kind of mystical jumbo that Christians believed for years. Perhaps, Joey should review our song books and remove the songs that are offensive to Joey's heresy. Now Joey may take the position of the modern versions and change it to doth not “practice sin” or "cannot sin." Or Joey can produce a non-carnal Christian that does not sin or cannot sin. Commit yourself, Joey, and take a position. There is no "degree" in the passage, only "doth not" and "cannot." The only mumbo-jumbo left to Joey, here, is the OLD NATURE standing at the JSOC. -- Herb Evans

 

Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;  24 And THAT YE PUT ON THE NEW MAN, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

 

Colossians 3:12 PUT ON therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

 

The "new man" is already perfect and doesn't need to "put on" anything. The unbeliever certainly does not have the "new man" available to "put on." Whoever it is that is called to put on the new man is the one who will stand trial at the Judgment Seat. But Herb has the NEW MAN standing trial at the Judgment Seat! How convenient! No wonder Herb thinks everyone will receive prizes! He has no Judgment Seat at all. He has a rewards ceremony where all the "new men" and "new natures" get praised! The Christian that will not PUT ON this new man daily, and will not confess and repent as much as he has light to do so, will RECEIVE for the wrong that he has done at the Judgment Seat. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord (we have seen it displayed in almost every book of the Bible) we persuade men!  -- Joey Faust
           

          Joey, have you not heard that THE OLD MAN IS DEAD? Believers have been set free indeed, according to Jesus (except Joey and his crowd). You have been messing with your heresy so much you have neglected the BASICS. Now, Joey is trying to maneuver the practical instructions of scripture to obviate the believers’ position IN CHRIST and incorporate it into his  heresy. Since you are trying to “PUT US ON,” you need to study the “put on’s” of scripture. -- Herb Evans

 

33. Herb writes: "Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

 

We certainly agree with this verse. But the promise is conditioned upon the believer WORKING OUT what God wills to work IN:

 

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT your own salvation with fear and TREMBLING. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:  15 That ye may be BLAMELESS and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16 Holding forth the word of life; that I MAY rejoice in the DAY OF CHRIST, that I have not run in vain, neither LABOURED IN VAIN. -- Joey Faust

 

As usual, Joey explains away one verse with another, a consistent tactic of his. Philipians1:6 has God beginning an eternal, continuous work in us and FINISHING that work. Philipians 2:12 shows a practical aspect of working out one’s “eternal" salvation that he already possesses--not working out a “works” salvation that he does not yet have. One has to have it to work it out. The purpose of this instruction is not the JSOC but a witness to a crooked and perverse nation. Joey still cannot interpret clear and simple passages, i.e., working “OUT” as opposed to working “FOR” salvation. Joey must pit one passage against another.     -- Herb Evans

 

We are to serve God with a fear that brings TREMBLING. Herb's teaching on the Judgment Seat is a joke. It makes no one tremble. It is incredible what reading ahead a chapter will do for us. It is true that God works in us; and we may rest in this fact. Yet, we are warned that we must not sit  and wait on God, blaming Him for our failures in the Christian walk. We are told to work out what He works in. But all believers do not do this. Therefore, all believers will not be blameless on the day of Christ Jesus. Paul exhorts the believers to hold fast that he MAY rejoice in their crowns. According to Herb's Gnostic, antinomian views, the word "blameless" in verse 15 is out of place! How in the world can believers who are perfect and sinless, and can never be held accountable, be told that they should strive to be BLAMELESS? Isn't this redundant? It is not, when we realize that there is more than just positional truth concerning New Testament believers. Herb's denial of accountability is very similar to the rebellious Israelite's denial in the OT: -- Joey Faust

 

Joey’s characterization and false charges of Herb Evans do not merit a response.  Nevertheless, the answer to Joey’s question is simple. Believers are not accountable for their sins at the judgment seat of Christ, for the sin question has been settled through Christ on the cross.  Nevertheless, even here believers are counted dead to sin and sins in the sense of continuous eternal life.  Accountability is not only in one category or in one place. The JSOC is a judgment of service accountability--not sin accountability. Although it says “works" repeatedly, Joey cannot grasp it. Joey must change “works” to “sins.” We have not let him get away with it, therefore the false names and characterizations of Herb Evans. Yawn! Burp!            -- Herb Evans    

 

Malachi 2:17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?  -- Joey Faust

 

Do you see how Joey just flings out verses that are irrelevant to what is being discussed and whose interpretation bears no resemblance to what the scripture’s intentions are? Par for the course! Among other things, Joey is a verse flinger. Okay, my response to Joey’s verse is Genesis 1:1. Now, there!  -- Herb Evans

 

34. Herb writes: "Joey, like a Jehovah's Witness, messes with 'eternal life,' using the above circular argument in order to make his false doctrine work."

 

If Herb would have read more than just the first paragraph of the chapter he would see that my first and foremost argument is based upon the most common definition of "eternal." Eternal life is sometimes set before believers as a reward. This is what my chapter proves.  -- Joey Faust

 

Herb Read this bit of circular argument in Chapter 28, The Reward of Eternal Life page 287, "Will God Spare the Rod?” (pre published edition)

 

"If the word 'eternal' were defined as enduring without end, then 'eternal life' would mean living, never to die again. Based on this definition, only those Christians that are accounted worthy of Millennial reign will experience 'eternal life' when Jesus returns."      -- Joey Faust

 

          Thank you, Jesus, you did not have to die for us to GET or KEEP eternal life, for we can GAIN eternal life as a reward. Do all you Independent, fundamental Baptists know that you have been wrong for decades and our forefathers were wrong for centuries? Joey is not a card carrying JW, but he is a fellow traveler, regarding eternal life.--Herb Evans

I then show that there is no reason to limit this word in these reward passages. I show that the Holy Spirit is promising overcoming, faithful believers that they will be raised never to die again BEFORE the Millennium. Unfaithful believers will be raised to be judged, but will return to death in their bodies (until the Great White Throne). Therefore, these unfaithful believers do not EXPERIENCE "eternal life" until AFTER the Millennium. My book also documents from many Bible and English dictionaries and scholars throughout history, that the word "can" have a sometimes limited meaning [so Joey will grab the can, but the can is not big enough -- Evans]. This argument is not necessary to my view in any degree.            

I simply offer it to the reader as alternative, since it was the view of S.S. Craig, a fiery, premillennial fundamentalist in 1916. He believed that "eternal life" could mean either "life in endless eternity," or "life during the Millennium." In other words, he defined it as "age-lasting life." The J.W. denies torment for unfaithful Christians during the Millennium, and he denies any torment for unbelievers throughout eternity. The view of S.S. Craig (though he AT TIMES limits the word "eternal," like almost every Christian scholar before 1930), is so far from the J.W. view, that it not only has unbelievers suffering in torment for all eternity, but it has God's unfaithful people suffering 1000 years! If Craig is a "J.W." for limiting the word "eternal" in certain contexts, then Herb is a "J.W." for denying that a believer can be punished during the Millennium! The "no hellers" would be proud of Herb. -- Joey Faust      

 

These comments should be left alone to reveal their own merit. Joey puts you in the lake of fire for just a little while. Yet, Joey puts you in hell for the remainder of the thousand years, because he has to put you somewhere during the millennium. Still, he doesn't say much about that here. -- Herb Evans

 

35. Herb writes: "Although he claims to be a King James Bible Believer, he likes to mess with the Greek to gainsay the plain English concerning 'eternal,' 'everlasting,' 'never,' and 'ever.'"   

 

Here Herb tells a nasty lie. There is not ONE TIME that I appeal to the Greek or Hebrew. I may quote a Bible dictionary or certain authors who appealed to the Greek as PART of their argument. Yet, I make my secondary argument fully on the English Bible and a list of rare English dictionaries. I believe the King James Bible is without error. -- Joey Faust

 

Oops! Sorry, Joey, I should have said that you enlist others to mess with the Greek to gainsay the plain English concerning "eternal." Bible believers will easily see through this bit of weasel wording. We must have hit a nerve here, for this "messing with eternal" was in the main part of the pre pub book, until we criticized it. Then Joey shifted it to the appendix. Joey needs to be told that he can’t have his cake and eat it too.-- Herb Evans

 

Therefore, Herb is simply trying to refute a book he has only glanced at. Notice he provided no documentation, but uses this as a way to bolster his argument and scare "KJV Onlyists" away from my book. --Joey Faust

 

Who needs documentation, when your disclaimers back up what I say. With this lengthy treatise of yours, I must have read something, for instance, the heretical and offensive parts and your misuse of scriptures. No, I merely skim read the propaganda quotes of others and the things which I don't disagree with; I am not into the traditions of men for my authority.     -- Herb Evans

 

Herb doesn’t realize that our church was listed in the newspaper in Dallas as one of the first church web sites on the Internet, back when it began. At the time, we were "Refuge King James Bible Church," and we had many articles on both KJV Onlyism AND Millennial exclusion, etc. Most KJV Onlyists therefore are familiar with my views.

 

From the very start of the Internet movement, David Cloud has listed our church in his directory with the disclaimer, "Believes partial rapture and disobedient Christians must spend 1000 years in Hell." Herb's audience is only one narrow branch of the KJV Only movement. And most of these men were already aware of my position, years ago. My E-mail and postal letter correspondence with most of them over the years, proves this to be so. Many of the brethren voiced his objections with me years before I ever wrote my book. My book is an ANSWER to these shallow objections. This is why I take Herb to task for simply reading the first sentence of various chapters of my book, and then wasting my time with his "objections," as if he is giving us something new. Let him digest my answers and then refute THEM. He would then be adding something fresh to the controversy. -- Joey Faust

 

          Herb did not take Joey Faust to task for his long held, long known, kingdom exclusion, split rapture views. Some of that came out on an e-mail list that we shared. Herb Evans took Joey Faust to task for his Christians in the lake of fire and hell views, the issue that Joey wants to evade and ignore, so he can tell you about kingdom exclusion of Christians and God slaying Christians at the JSOC. But Herb won't let him evade Herb's main issue with him. -- Herb Evans

 

36. Herb writes: "Faust likewise searches for places in which 'eternal' does not mean 'eternal,' 'never' does not mean 'never,' and so forth, so that his NON continuous eternal life can cease at the JSOC, where Faust has God killing and burning the carnal Christian after He 'raises' him to heaven."

 

Herb fails to mention that this is only a secondary argument and that my position is not dependent upon the relative nature of these words. Yet, since certain words are sometimes used in a relative fashion, I throw out the possibility as ANOTHER secondary manner of interpreting the warnings to believers. Such words are interpreted by the AGE they are meant to represent. If the age is this lifetime, "for ever" would mean throughout the life. If the AGE is the Millennium, it might mean throughout 1000 years. If the AGE is eternity, the words would mean throughout infinity. This is reasonable, and there is much to commend the view. Yet, I only use the view in an appendix, and my view is not dependent on the sometimes relative nature of these words.        --Joey Faust

 

Like I say, “Who needs quotes," when Joey is willing to expound his views here. In fact, dear reader, surely, you do not need the book after this? But, Joey, after his weasel wording that they are ONLY used in the appendix, need  tell us how these things got into the appendix. They were in the main part of the pre-pub book until Herb Evans zeroed in on them. Joey was a little embarrassed about that, since he had evangelically targeted the KJB only camp with his heresy. --Herb Evans

 

37. Herb writes: "....Faust now puts such eternal life indiscretions in the appendix." I shortened almost all the chapters to make the book easier to read. Yet Herb is still having some trouble with it.    --Joey Faust

 

Aha! Joey >fesses up with, of course, more weasel wording. Yeah, sure, shortened it up. Tsk! Tsk! -- Herb Evans        

 

38. Herb writes: "The eternal life, which truly saved Christians have, is NOT a REWARD (presented neither to them at the JSOC nor after the millennium) as Joey teaches."

 

Herb offers no Scripture proofs. He does not deal with a single proof-text I offer to show that "eternal life" IS sometimes offered as a reward for good works. The reader is supposed to believe Herb's statement is true because Herb says it is true. John Bunyan, Jack Hyles, and others, have toyed with the idea that either "everlasting life" or "eternal life," in some contexts, refers to a reward for holy living. I show that fundamentalist S.S. Craig (look him up on the Internet) had the best argument, and that it fits with Scripture, and the views of Pember, Govett, Nee, Tilney, etc. -- Joey Faust

 

          Joey can stick Craig, Pember, Nee, Tilney, and etc., up his nose. They are his authorities not mine. Herb already offered many proof texts in some articles (available on request), having the promises of God on eternal life with emphasis on the present tense word “HATH" in connection to eternal life. Jesus said in John 5:24, “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, and SHALL NOT come into CONDEMNATION. But Joey persists in placing believers in condemnation jeopardy.  -- Herb Evans

 

39. Herb writes: "2 Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you."

 

Yes, as Paul explains in the very next chapter, all Christians will be RAISED to stand trial in the body, and some may then experience the TERROR of the Lord: -- Joey Faust

 

Do you see the ploy, Joey cannot explain 2 Cor. 4:14, so he pulls a misdirection play and gets you away from it into the next chapter, where Joey interprets the terror of the Lord as being killed at the JSOC and thrown in the Lake of fire. What? Does it say that? Of course not, Joey Faust forces and pontificates it into the chapter. Joey only believes what he declares. 2 Cor. 4 and 5 make no distinctions between the believers that are raised and presented. Joey has an interesting disclaimer on the words “raised" and “resurrected," which Joey uses to have non-carnal believers resurrected in new bodies but carnal believers only “raised" in old bodies. Ask him about it. -- Herb Evans

 

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.  11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. -- Joey Faust

 

Joey would have you believe that the good refers to the rewardable things and the bad refers to your sins. The acceptance of all believers here is whether present (alive)--accepted, and whether absent (dead or raptured)--accepted. That EVERY ONE may receive good and bad for the things done in the body--works. The good refers to the rewardable works of gold, silver, and precious stones and the bad refers to the wood hay and stubble. Then all the works are tried by fire after everyone receives their share of each.

Notice who is persuaded here-MEN not believers. But Thinks that  the terror of the Lord is being killed at the JSOC as opposed to receiving something. He believes that the lake of fire is meant. How do just the non-carnal Christians know the terror of the Lord? Seems like the carnal ones would know it even more.  -- Herb Evans

 

40. Herb writes: "Joey SPINS some believers as only being 'raised' but NOT really being 'resurrected.'"

 

And Herb only restates what I maintain. He does not refute it with any proof-texts or reasonings. The reader is to believe that Joey Faust is wrong because Herb says that he is wrong. Paul plainly states that all believers will be RAISED before the Millennium. But "having part" in the First Resurrection is MORE than being raised to judgment. It is being raised, never to die again, to rule and reign with Christ:

 

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:  36 Neither can they DIE ANY MORE: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. --Joey Faust

 

Well, Joey, Herb must have read it. Keep “maintaining” for folks to see what you are all about. Joey maintains this pat answer routine but does not prove it. You see Joey can’t allow carnal Christians to be resurrected in a new body, because carnal Christians in his view are killed again at the JSOC by God in his view. So, he cannot allow this passage to apply to every born again Christian, only the non-carnal ones. Oh, what webs we weave, when we first practice to deceive. Joey, it says, he that believeth in me shall NEVER die. Hallelujah, thank you Jesus, Praise de Lawd, Does I have a witness?   --Herb Evans

 

Paul labored to be found worthy of this resurrection (the prize of remaining alive at the Judgment Seat to reign with Christ):  -- Joey Faust

 

Did you get that? The prize is not getting killed at the JSOC (see next item). Why? Just because Joey says it. He does not provide any proof-texts or reasoning. The reader is to believe that Joey Faust is right because he says he is right.  -- Herb Evans

 

Philippians 3:10-14 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;  11 IF BY ANY MEANS I might attain unto the RESURRECTION of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were ALREADY PERFECT: but I follow after . . . I press toward the mark for the PRIZE of the HIGH CALLING of God in Christ Jesus.  --Joey Faust  

 

Paul did not mean here that there was a possibility of him not being resurrected. Paul was talking about knowing the power of the resurrection and the fellowship of Christ’s sufferings and being made conformable unto Christ’s death for attaining UNTO a better resurrection (Heb. 11:35). The PRIZE is the high calling of God not escaping death at the JSOC. Joey wants “attain” to mean “acquire” the resurrection by Paul’s efforts, whereas Paul was using the word "attain” in the sense of arriving or reaching the resurrection IF BY ANY MEANS (death or rapture, present or absent, carnal or non-carnal).  Paul was very clear in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 that he fully expected that he and those, who are IN JESUS, would rise (resurrect) LIKE JESUS. He called these words of comfort to those, who had lost love ones die that were in Christ, who had no idea whether they were carnal or non-carnal per Joey Faust’s specifications, (which we still do not know where the line is that he has drawn). The prize is the HIGH CALLING here and is consistent with 1 Cor. 9:24-25, where one receives and obtains the PRIZE but every man strives for the MASTERY to obtain an incorruptible crown. -- Herb Evans

 

Paul teaches the same thing in 2 Corinthians 5, which we have already quoted:

 

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore WE LABOUR, that, whether present or absent, WE MAY BE ACCEPTED of him. 10 FOR we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. --Joey Faust

 

Yes, as a matter of fact, Paul does teach the same thing--PRESENT (alive) or ABSENT (death or rapture) ACCEPTANCE. ALL appear and all are accepted and ALL attain to some degree. All will be ashamed, All will suffer some loss, ALL will receive wood, hay, and stubble and gold. --Herb Evans

 

             Paul wanted to be accepted on the day of judgment. He did not want to experience the TERROR of the Lord. He did not want to die again (a second death). He wanted to "have part" in the FIRST RESURRECTION (i.e. he wanted to rule with Christ 1000 years): -- Joey Faust

 

You will note that this is merely Joey Faust commentary. His above proof texts say nothing of the lake of fire, the first or second resurrection, or dying again. This is a Joey Faust pontification. -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and HOLY is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.        

 

Unfaithful Christians will be raised. At the Judgment Seat, they may experience the terror of the Lord and die again, being TEMPORARILY hurt of the second death: -- Joey Faust

 

The problem here is that Joey is a split rapturist and is speaking from that view. We believe the saved are going to be in the first resurrection and only the lost will be in the second resurrection of the damned that stand before the great white throne. Joey’s proof text says nothing about UNFAITHFUL Christians or temporary second death. Joey interpolates all this and forces it into the passage. -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. -- Joey Faust

 

The problem here is that Joey tries to force his overcoming by works into this passage. It is we, the BORN AGAIN, who overcome by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB (1 John 5:4; Rev. 12:11). Obviously, from the rebukes to these churches, there were false professors as well as true believers in them. -- Herb Evans

 

41. Herb writes: "Joey, a split rapturist (careful not to use the words 'raised' and 'translated,' instead of 'raptured' or 'resurrected,') believes the carnal will eventually be raptured AFTER the thousand year kingdom."

 

Herb wrongly equates the words "rapture" and "resurrection." Enoch was TRANSLATED, but he was never RESURRECTED. Lazarus was RAISED from the dead, but he was never TRANSLATED. And he certainly was not raised NEVER TO DIE AGAIN. I believe that living Christians who watch in holiness may be translated before the tribulation period. Those who are still alive near the end of the tribulation period will be translated at that time. I believe the carnal Christians that do not repent will have to wait until AFTER the Millennium to be resurrected to live eternally. They are not "raptured" at the end of the Millennium.  -- Joey Faust

 

Hey, a rose by any other name! Have it your way with onion and pickle, if you like. Joey still has the same problem whether they are raptured or translated. It is here that Joey has them getting their new body. Since they are dead and in hell, they have to be  resurrected at the end of the 1000 years per Joey’s scheme. And that is plain falsehood. Joey just delayed the inevitable with his qualification of words.  Jesus allows for only two resurrections, the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29). Joey Faust has either a third resurrection or combines a carnal Christian resurrection with the lost resurrection at the end of the 1000 years. -- Herb Evans

 

42. Herb writes: "The real implication here is that the carnal believers, by Joey's theory, are railroaded before they are judged. They are denied a mortal body, when they are raptured before the JSOC (without an official determination)."

 

I am not sure what Herb means by "raptured" here. But the degree of glory they earned in life will indeed shine forth in the BODY of the believers. There is a degree of confidence (or shame) a believer may have BEFORE he is judged, based upon his or her conscience. The exact nature of the body a carnal believer will be raised in at the Judgment Seat is open to debate and conjecture. I only maintain that the carnal believer (in whatever type of body he is raised in) may then experience the TERROR of the Lord, and be banished to the underworld during the Millennium as described in Luke 12, Mark 9, Matthew 18, 2 Corinthians 5:9-11, Revelation 2:11, Ephesians 5, etc.  -- Joey Faust

 

Well, this is a welcome concession from the former discussions that I had with Joey in which he fell on the old mortal body side of conjecture and debate. However, Joey has placed himself on the horns of a dilemma, for if carnal believers have their old mortal bodies, they are punished BEFORE the JSOC. If they have new bodies, Joey has the new incorruptible bodies killed by God and thrown into the lake of fire and then into hell or as Joey says the underworld. Now, it is most Christian’s view that they will have an INCORRUPTIBLE BODY. Something wrong here, Joey. Nevertheless, “. . . the dead shall be raised incorruptible [sounds like a resurrection to me], and we shall ALL be changed For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1Cor.15:52-53) --Herb Evans

 

43. Herb writes: "And, behold, I come quickly; and my REWARD is with me, to give EVERY MAN according as his WORK shall be. -- Rev. 22:12."

 

It appears that Herb quotes this verse as a proof-text. If so, now we have Herb applying a verse in Revelation 22 to a Christian in this dispensation. We have already seen him apply promises in the Gospels, as well as promises from Hebrews. Therefore, it is clearly manifested that Herb picks and chooses what he wishes to apply to the Christian according to whether or not he likes the promise! If it sounds nice, Herb applies it to Christians. If it is a strong warning, Herb ignores it or attempts to wiggle out from under it. A few sentences later, Herb quotes another verse in the Book of Revelation: "3.) Rev. 2:10 (Martyr's crown of life)." It is clear that Herb applies this conditional promise to Christians today. -- Joey Faust

 

Herb sees nothing wrong with accepting a promise in Rev. 22:12 that is an obvious postscript to the book of prophecy and its final invitation. Herb Evans does not see a problem with that. -- Herb Evans

 

But he does everything he can under the sun to get out from under the following verse:

 

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 

This is only because Herb IMAGINES that getting a crown of LIFE has nothing to do with the REWARD of LIVING with Christ during the 1000 years: --Joey Faust          

 

Why should Herb try to get out from under someone making this passage the present or the future, when the whole chapter is loaded with past tense, including the names of an individual named Antipas (2:13). Why should I try to get out from under someone, who makes the FAITHFUL unto death “crown of life" an escape from death at the JSOC or the lake of fire or hell, when these things are not in his proof text? Joey just makes them up and inserts them as he goes. -- Herb Evans

 

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. --Joey Faust

 

Don’t you just love this promise that promises the overcomers by the BLOOD of the LAMB that they won’t have to experience the second death in the lake of fire. Or is it the third death since Joey says folks die at the judgment seat a second time? Praise the Lord!    -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation 20:4....and THEY LIVED and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

      

Revelation 2:10-11 is saying the same thing in two different ways. If the believer overcomes, he will get a crown of LIFE. If he overcomes, he will NOT be hurt of the second DEATH. If Herb had read my book, he would have realized that the verse he quoted in Revelation 22 is against his view. There are positive AND negative rewards. Some will be REWARDED with a scourging and Millennial banishment. Notice how REWARDS may be positive or negative:

 

Proverbs 26:10 The great God that formed all things both REWARDETH the fool, and REWARDETH transgressors. -- Joey Faust

 

Yeah, and it rains on the just and the unjust; moot point. -- Herb Evans

 

44. Herb writes: "The crowns that are outlined above have nothing to do with obtaining a resurrection nor any entrance into the Millennial kingdom nor escaping punishment from a Baptist purgatory, hell, or lake of fire."

 

Again, the reader is supposed to believe this statement because Herb said it. Yet, the apostle Paul identified the PRIZE with the first resurrection and Millennial reign:

 

Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 IF BY ANY MEANS I might attain unto the RESURRECTION of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend THAT for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for THE PRIZE of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 

Therefore, we are not interested in anyone's opinions concerning crowns and prizes. Paul tells us that he strives for the resurrection, which he later calls the PRIZE. He uses the same word elsewhere, where he likewise tells us he is striving for it: -- Joey Faust

 

          Joey makes three mistakes here. Paul did not say “I might attain the resurrection of the dead,” Paul said “I might attain UNTO the resurrection of the dead.” The second mistake is to interpret the word "attain unto" to mean "acquire," for the idea here is arriving or reaching. The third mistake is to mistake the "prize" to be the resurrection, when it is the “high calling of God IN Christ Jesus." In Joey Faust's system both carnal and non-carnal Christians get resurrected at different times, so surely he can’t mean that carnal Christians will not be resurrected at some time or other, but his contradictory interpretation of this passage will not allow them to ever resurrect. Therefore, we are not interested in Joey’s misinterpretations and mistakes. Paul was not striving for a resurrection; Paul was striving for a BETTER resurrection (Heb. 11:35). -- Herb Evans

 

             1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth THE PRIZE? So run, that YE MAY OBTAIN. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.  26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY.

 

             In Philippians Paul says he labors, if by an means he may win the prize, which he links to being resurrected. In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul says he labors to obtain the prize, and tells other believers to also run for it. He tells us that those who do not obtain the prize, will be CASTAWAY. -- Joey Faust

 

          Now, it is the MASTERY that obtains the prize of the incorruptible crown of the HIGH CALLING OF GOD.  Paul was concerned about being an unused, on the shelf, castaway reject by losing the race's rewards or suffering that loss. Linking something to the resurrection does not demand that either salvation, eternal life, or the resurrection is gained or lost by the link, except in Faust's imagination. --Herb Evans

 

45. Herb writes: "There are all different kinds of crown rewards that will be cast before the Lord's throne before the millennial kingdom (Rev. 4:10)."

 

Herb now appeals to Revelation 4:10:

 

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying...

 

Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: HOLD that fast which thou hast, that no man TAKE THY CROWN.

 

1 Corinthians 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible CROWN; but we an incorruptible.

 

First, there is nothing in the verse about multiple crowns on an individual Elder's head (not that it would matter anyway). These "Elders"(plural) had crowns on their heads (Revelation 4:4). I hold that these Elders represent the living Christians who will be rewarded with Millennial priesthood at the pre-trib rapture (Revelation 5:10, 20:6). These Elders have been translated BEFORE the tribulation period. They know they will reign on earth (Revelation 5:10). This is therefore a special class of overcoming believers. They ALL have crowns. But ALL Christians will not receive a crown: Therefore, these 24 Elders do NOT represent ALL Christians. The Bible says the crowns are conditional. The various adjectives applied to the crown (life, glory, righteousness) are all summed up in what the crown represents. The crown represents a KINGDOM. It represents LIVING and reigning with Christ in GLORY during the Millennium, which is a REWARD for being experientially RIGHTEOUS. Herb's apparent idea that ALL Christians receive some type of crown, regardless of their degree of service, is without foundation. Herb argues that surely every Christians will have "something" worth praising. But this fails to realize that the manner in which a Christian has been living at rapture or right before death plays a big part in the Christian's judgment (Luke 12:45). This principle of judgment is also seen in the OT:  -- Joey Faust       

  

          While Joey Faust is right about the plural crowns and plural elders not demanding multiple crowns, it also does not demand one crown per elder. Nevertheless, the different, multiple crowns that are obtainable are named throughout the scripture, i.e., the crown of life (Rev. 1:12), the crown of glory (1 pet. 5:4), the crown of rejoicing (1 Thess. 2:19), the incorruptible crown (1 Cor. 9:25), the soul winners crown (Phil. 4:1, and the crown of righteousness (2 Tim. 4:8). Joey has just delayed the inevitability of multiple crowns that are available. We are not contesting that some believers will not receive any crowns or will not suffer any loss or that every Christian will not get any crowns. This is a Joey Faust straw man. We are contesting Joey’s missing link that the crowns have something to do with not getting killed at the JSOC or being thrown into the lake of fire or hell. --Herb Evans

 

            Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be TAKEN AWAY even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the UNPROFITABLE SERVANT into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.    -- Joey Faust

 

Do you see anything about crowns here? We don't. We see TALENTS HERE. This is more of Joey Faust’s practice of connecting verses and concepts that should not be connected. It also reflects Joey Faust’s misunderstood, “end time" frame. This occurs after the tribulation and after the marriage and after the JSOC, after the Son returns. Moreover, when Joey sees the word servant, he does not realize the word need not demand a saved believer. Israel, whether saved or not, was God's servant. Cyrus was God's servant whether saved or unsaved. Joey’s servants are lost. Note it is profitable servants versus unprofitable servants. This is why Joey likes parables; he can mess with them.  -- Herb Evans

 

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the RIGHTEOUS turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?  -- Joey Faust 

 

          Dying physically and the lake of fire and the JSOC are three different things. Nevertheless, you can see how Joey forces them to link together. Even a saint in this dispensation can live it for a while, backslide, and be chastised and be killed by the Lord here on earth.  We had that happen to a man in our church. --Herb Evans

 

According to Herb's reasoning, the Corinthians should not have disfellowshipped the fornicator; they should have gathered around him and praised him for all the OTHER good things that he may have done! The Lord is righteous, and He will not forget the good deeds we have done for Him (Hebrews 6:10). But He will not allow us to trust in past obedience as a justification for present sin. The mercy we show to others, will certainly grant us a degree of mercy at the Judgment Seat (James 2:13). But how we are FOUND, in death or rapture, plays a very large part in our judgment. Notice, we are to beware, lest we be FOUND of Him in an unwatchful, unholy state: -- Joey Faust

 

This is a total misrepresentation of Herb Evans, another Joey Faust straw man. Paul urged the church to commit the fornicator to Satan, so that his SPIRIT might be SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus (JSOC, 1 Cor. 5:5). -- Herb Evans

 

Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom THE LORD when HE COMETH shall FIND WATCHING: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

 

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be FOUND of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

A crown technically gained, may be lost (Revelation 3:11). Rewards technically gained, may be forfeited by future conduct:

 

2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we LOSE NOT those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

 

If the Lord was able to divide Israel into two groups when Joshua and Caleb were praised and the rest were rejected, He may certainly divide Christians into two groups (faithful and unfaithful). -- Joey Faust        

 

More Joey Faust Straw men and “technical” weasel wording. Herb Evans does not contest loss of rewards or loss of crowns or partial rewards. Herb Evans contests Joey Faust's view of the crown and Joey's heretical theory that Christians are not all raptured or translated or resurrected or of having continuous eternal life. The desperate attempt to compare Joshua and Caleb to burning and non-burning Christians is too ridiculous to respond. -- Herb Evans

 

46. Herb writes: "Paul was running in a RACE and pressing toward the MARK of the high calling of God, i.e., the MASTERY PRIZE. He was not in a race for the resurrection nor the kingdom nor was Paul concerned about losing the resurrection nor the kingdom."

 

Herb does not DEFINE what the MASTERY PRIZE is! He simply tells us that (even though Paul linked the prize and the resurrection) the prize is NOT the first resurrection. He offers no proof. He does not attempt to explain what Paul means by RESURRECTION. The reader is to simply understand that when Herb says something is NOT, it is NOT! Herb says Paul was not in a race for the KINGDOM. But notice the following verses: -- Joey Faust

 

No, Herb does not say the prize is NOT linked to the first resurrection, for Herb Evans believes the prize applies to the first resurrection, since Herb Evans does not believe that believers will be in the resurrection of damnation (2nd). Better read it again, Joey.  Herb Evans did define the mastery as the “HIGH CALLING of God.” Reading problem, Joey? Didn’t Joey read my booklet? -- Herb Evans

 

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we MUST through much tribulation enter into the KINGDOM of God.

 

2 Timothy 2:12 If WE suffer, WE shall also reign with him: if WE deny him, he also will deny US:

 

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live GODLY in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 

 

All believers do not live godly, and all believers do not suffer persecution. Therefore, all believers will not reign. Christians who do not let their light shine before men, and who will not witness, will not reign when Christ appears. The various KINGDOM warnings to the saints in 1 Corinthians 6, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 5, also make this point clear. --Joey Faust

 

Joey, here, wants to get our attention away from the lake of fire, hell, and the slaying at the JSOC of believers and trying to sidetrack us into a kingdom discussion, where he can really muddy the water. As we said before, we will not accommodate him in changing the subject. Nevertheless, suffering is not a requirement for salvation or eternal life, unless you are an ascetic. --Herb Evans        

 

47. Herb writes: AThe kings and priests, which were made by God in Rev. 5:10, were made so by the blood by which Christ redeemed them in Rev. 5:9, long before the JSOC. Believers are made kings and priests by his blood BEFORE he comes (Rev. 1:6) and are NOW a HOLY and ROYAL PRIESTHOOD (1 Peter 2:5, 9)? NOT BY RUNNING ANY RACE NOR some CROWNING EVENT."

 

Herb fails to distinguish between the salvation and privileges in eternity that every Christian will one day experience through Christ's Blood, and the Millennial privileges that will be experienced only by those who apply Christ's Blood in SANCTIFICATION (i.e. the Christian walk). Christ's Blood does more than save a believer in eternity. When the believer WALKS by faith, the Blood of the Covenant CLEANSES the saint (Hebrews 13:20-21). If a Christian does not WALK in this grace by faith, he will not be practically sanctified: -- Joey Faust

 

          Despite the double tongued double talk here, Joey Faust ends up with blood bought kings and priests in hell and the lake of fire. We fail to see the word "privileges" in this passage. This is merely a meaningless, worthless, pat answer ploy. Joey fails to distinguish between his positional sanctification and his practical sanctification, his positional cleansing and his practical cleansing in regard to eternal life. -- Herb Evans

 

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

This is not a loss of positional sanctification. It is a loss of practical, experiential sanctification in the Christian walk. We must receive this daily power:  --Joey Faust

 

Where does Joey get all these extra scriptural terms. He is beginning to sound like a Calvinist. Positional sanctification by the blood is never lost, therefore eternal life is never lost. You either have practical sanctification or you don't; it is not something you lose. Joey's  passage is asking what THEY SUPPOSE or thought about a worthy sorer punishment for these offenders. Physical death was being discussed in regard to Moses law. Somehow, Joey ends up with the lake of fire here in his doctrine by inference and innuendo. -- Herb Evans

 

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, LET US HAVE GRACE, whereby we may SERVE God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:  29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;  

 

             Numbers 32:7 And wherefore discourage ye the heart of the children of Israel from going over into the LAND which the LORD HATH GIVEN THEM?

 

Numbers 15:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land of your habitations, WHICH I GIVE UNTO YOU, [See also: Leviticus 14:34, 23:10, 25:2]

 

Herb also does not realize that the Millennial reward has been "technically" GIVEN to every believer, the same way the promised land was technically GIVEN to the Israelites: Nevertheless, most of these Israelites did not obtain that which they had been given. In the same way, the REWARD of ruling and reigning with Christ is already given unto us. But, unlike eternal salvation, we must CONQUER through HIS POWER if we will obtain Millennial entrance and glory. It is no wonder that the kingdom and the priesthood is spoken of in certain places as something we already possess. The CROWN itself is spoken of in the same manner: --Joey Faust

 

          Joey has again resorted to verse flinging with no pertinent rationale or exegesis in his quest to prove God is an Indian giver. Joey claims God's GIFT must be worked for, as Joey, tired of using parables for doctrine, runs to the Old Testament to prove that we  should not believe that we can keep what was given to us believers, unless we work for it. Like we said some time ago, Joey Faust is the apostle of UNCERTAINTY. Joey, like a Catholic, will never tell you how much is required to get you in or keep you out. -- Herb Evans

 

            Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take THY CROWN.

 

In one sense, no Christian possesses the crown. It is a future prize. But there is a sense in which all believers already possess the crown (i.e. the same sense in which the Israelites already possessed entrance into the promised land). Esau already possessed his birthright in a technical sense. But we may sometimes lose certain things which we have been given. The Millennial reign is conditioned upon conquering, overcoming, and suffering by the power of His Blood, through grace. We may lose the crown of life, and we may be blotted out of the Book of Life (unbelievers are not in the Book of Life, in regard to the Millennium): -- Joey Faust

 

By now, it should be obvious that Joey has no scripture for backing up his lake of fire theory for believers, so he must resort to this "technical" mumbo jumbo to prove that God is an Indian giver, quite similar to the tactics of Bible correctors. You know, "In a technical sense the English Bible is inspired, etc. and etc. He has the persistence of a cult member in his quest to prove that God has not saved us to the UTTERMOST. Texas produces another David Koresh. -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation 3:5 He that OVERCOMETH, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.           

 

            Notice, the name is already in the Book (of Millennial life). If the Christian overcomes the giants, he will not lose the crown of LIFE and be blotted out of the Book of LIFE. In other words, he will not be hurt of the second death, and he will rule and reign with Jesus during the Millennium.  -- Joey Faust  

 

Joey Faust loves to change the “I will NOT” promises  of God's word into the possibility that he WILL do what He says He will not do. Here is one of the main tenets of the OVERCOMERS’ CULT. You must over come by works and not by the BLOOD to escape the lake of fire and hell and the JSOC slaying. Believers are not blotted out of the Book of Life. Joey does not have one proof text that shows this happening anywhere. But how do they get back in the Book of Life in order to avoid being thrown back in the lake of fire with the lost? --Herb Evans

 

48. Herb writes: "Joey's second mistake is to think that to ATTAIN UNTO the resurrection means the same thing as to ATTAIN the resurrection. Joey interprets 'ATTAIN' in the sense of Paul must 'ACQUIRE' his special non carnal resurrection by some human effort such as some kind of the ascetic suffering, rather than to ARRIVE or REACH that resurrection (the correct meaning)."

 

Now Herb is venturing out a little deeper. Notice how he must first create a straw man in order to build up his hypothesis. He mocks what he calls "ascetic suffering." But there is nothing in the Bible or my book that says anything about being a monk or a hermit! The Bible teaches us to live godly, and preach the Word. When we do this faithfully, the suffering (against the flesh, the Devil, and the world) will occur naturally. Herb, because he will not believe or accept anything other than what he has known and preached for years, must do anything he can to escape Philippians 3:11. He tells us that "attain unto" means "arrive or reach." Yet, in an AMAZING display of contorted ducking and twisting, Herb then implies that this "reaching" is WITHOUT EFFORT on Paul's part! Webster's 1828 dictionary defines "attain" in the following manner:

 

"1. To reach; to come to or arrive at, by motion, bodily exertion, or efforts towards a place or object." - Joey Faust 

 

Implies? Implies? Where does Herb imply that? Obviously, since Paul buffeted his body, the reaching is not without effort in that Paul wanted to attain UNTO A BETTER resurrection in the best possible shape. But it does not teach that the resurrection itself is acquired by such efforts. No, Herb was not implying that; that is another of your straw man, Joey. Herb teaches to struggle against the world, the flesh, and the devil, and heretics for a BETTER resurrection (Heb. 11:35)—not continuous eternal life. -- Herb Evans

 

If words mean anything, the words mean that Paul is doing EVERYTHING HE CAN to walk by the Spirit and FIGHT for this resurrection!:  -- Joey Faust

 

That is Joey spin. Paul was not fighting to get the resurrection; he was fighting to reach the resurrection in good shape, a BETTER resurrection, if you please (Heb. 11:35).  --Herb Evans

 

Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his SUFFERINGS, being made conformable unto his death; 11 IF BY ANY MEANS I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 

I confess that I do not know what the phrase "if by any means" (coming right after Paul's testimony that he wants to suffer with Christ) can MEAN if it does not clearly and simply state that Paul is doing everything he can to "attain unto" the resurrection! A little "comparing Scripture with Scripture.”

 

Acts 27:12 And because the haven was not commodious to winter in, the more part advised to depart thence also, IF BY ANY MEANS they MIGHT ATTAIN TO Phenice, and there to winter; which is an haven of Crete, and lieth toward the south west and north west.

 

They did not reach Phenice. They did not experience Phenice. They did not land in Phenice. They did not attain unto Phenice. They did not have part IN Phenice. They did not touch Phenice. They did not enter Phenice. They were CASTAWAYS. They were SHIPWRECKED (see 1 Timothy 1:19). It therefore follows that Paul labored that "if by any means" he might "attain unto" the RESURRECTION. This certainly means that he labored so he could EXPERIENCE the resurrection and have part in it. -- Joey Faust

 

Simply, the best made plans of mice and men not to reach Phenice, so Joey compares reaching Phenice with the resurrection? Therefore, in Joey’s syllogistic boondoggle, Paul may not really attain or experience or have part in the first resurrection, if he did not comply with Joey’s criteria. Can Joey mean that the carnal will NEVER attain the resurrection? Even at the GWTJ. Or could it mean that the carnal and the non carnal saints will attain the resurrection by ANY MEANS. Still, attaining TO Phenice is not the same as attaining UNTO the resurrection. Nice try! -- Herb Evans

 

49. Herb writes: "Again, Paul is looking forward to the end of his RACE as he pressed toward the finish line or MARK (Phil. 3:14) in which the PRIZES, in these verses, are the MASTERY and the HIGH calling of God in Christ Jesus but which are not the resurrection nor the kingdom."

 

Here Herb simply throws words around to make it look as if he is expounding Scripture! He tells us that the MARK is the PRIZE and the Prize is the MASTERY. But these are all PICTURES. What do these things represent [now, Joey delves into the figurative]? The prize is indeed said to be the HIGH CALLING (Philippians 3:14). But what is the HIGH CALLING? What is it a calling to? It is obviously [not to us] the RESURRECTION mentioned in 3:11. It is a calling unto a life of faithfulness in Jesus which will be rewarded by a glorious resurrection into the Millennial Kingdom:

 

1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would WALK WORTHY of God, who hath CALLED YOU unto his KINGDOM and glory.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be COUNTED WORTHY of the KINGDOM of God, for which ye also SUFFER: [2 Timothy 2:12] -- Joey Faust           

 

Notice how Joey marries two verse from two different books to arrive at his corrupted thinking. Joey Faust makes the commands and instructions of scripture to be “conditions” in order not to be killed at the JSOC or not to be thrown in the lake of fire. None of us dirty sinners is  worthy of anything. Still, we certainly can and should walk worthy of our calling, but Joey’s second proof text is talking about being COUNTED WORTHY, due to their suffering and tribulation. But this is a long way to a condition for getting to the kingdom and escaping the lake of fire.  Unfortunately, all of us do many unworthy things, including Joey. It is called sin. --Herb Evans

 

50. Herb writes: "For Faust's information, believers have been translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col. 1:13) for over nineteen centuries."

 

Govett maintains that there are two Kingdoms. There is a present, spiritual Kingdom made up of all saints, entered by faith alone. And then there is the future Millennial Kingdom entered through faith and works. There is much to commend this view. Others, such as G.N.H. Peters, suggested that verses such as these are simply statements of what God has already accomplished for believers (see Romans 4:17). Statements such as these are not necessarily without conditions. As we have seen, the Israelites were already given the promised land. But most in that generation were castaway and overthrown in the wilderness. Even Moses was not permitted to cross over. Jesus had already, in one technical sense, given the Philadelphian church a crown. Yet, they were told to be sure not to lose it (Revelation 3:11). I list both of these possibilities in my book in a whole chapter devoted to the Kingdom. Herb does not attempt to answer or argue against either view. He probably did not even read the chapter where these answers concerning Colossians 1:13, and other passages, are stated.  -- Joey Faust

 

Herb Evans reads what he needs to read in order to brand Joey Faust a heretic. Who cares what former Anglican Govett or Peters said? Or who needs Govett to tell us that there are 2 kingdoms phrases? And we certainly do not need this “faith plus works” scenario from anyone, including the overcomer cult and hyper dispensationalists. Herb still will not allow Joey to change the subject on us. The subject is Joey’s heresy of believers in the lake of fire. This spiritual kingdom culminates in a physical millennial kingdom. -- Herb Evans.

 

51. Herb writes: "The only requirements for seeing and entering this kingdom is being born-again (John 3:3-5)..."

 

Here Herb ASSUMES that the Kingdom in John 3 is the Millennium. Secondly, assuming it is the Millennium, Herb then assumes that because a requirement is listed in one passage, that such means it is the ONLY requirement! One verse tells us that we must please God to have our prayers answered. Another verse tells us that if a righteous man prays fervently, it will avail much. Another verse tells us that if we ask amiss our prayers will be hindered. It is therefore reckless to assume that because Jesus says that being born again is "a" requirement for Millennial entrance, that such means it is the ONLY requirement. Furthermore, men such as Govett (whom Spurgeon said wrote the best BAPTIST commentary on John's Gospel he had ever read), and J.R. Graves, believed that the WATER in John 3 means water baptism. They both abhorred baptismal regeneration (Govett left the Church of England and became a Baptist over the issue). But it is worthy of consideration that TWO requirements are listed in John 3 for entering the Millennium. First, one must be born again by the Spirit, and secondly, one must be baptized (representing the first step in a life of confession and discipleship). Whether or not this is true does nothing to my position.  -- Joey Faust        

 

Joey displays his endorsement of Govett’s sloppy exegesis of John 3; I’m not a disciple of his. The water is anything but water baptism. Now, we have more info on Joey, when he lends credibility to Govett’s view that water baptism is required for entering the kingdom of God, which cannot even be seen by the non-born again. Folks must be translated into the kingdom of God  before anything else takes place. That spiritual Kingdom if God culminates in the physical kingdom of God or millennial kingdom. One need only run references on the kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven to see this.    -- Herb Evans

 

It only shows that Herb's "grab and run" habit of dealing with Scriptures is presumptuous. My book does not deny that there are a few verses that must be answered. I do answer them all, in detail. It is the same with any truth. But when one compares the verses my position must answer, with the scores and scores of verses my opponents must answer, it should be clear that my opponents are on the wrong side of Scripture. They do have untrained emotion on their side (who at first DESIRES accountability?). But my position has Scripture on its side. -- Joey Faust

 

This arrogant heretic has a wonderful view of himself and his final authority book. Joey's book does not answer or resolve the issue of believers burning in a Baptist purgatory. Nor does it answer why believers cannot rely on the precious promises of eternal life that are given to them. Joey is saying I am right and all you emotional, Independent, fundamental, Independent Baptists and even your song books have been wrong on these things for all these years. That is clearly a heretic’s pontification. -- Herb Evans

 

52. Herb writes: "2 Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

 

This verse simply means that if Paul's body is thrown to the lions, or if he must be beheaded in prison, that the Lord will INSURE that he will be raised again. Paul has been living for Jesus and fighting the good fight. He is about to die a martyr's death. He has confidence, on the basis of 2 Timothy 2:12, that he will be raised to reign with Jesus:

 

2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

 

Every Christian who has labored and suffered for Jesus, at the end of his course, may have the same expectation and confidence that Paul possessed (especially when the executioner is about to appear at the door). -- Joey Faust   

 

It is obvious that Joey Faust tries to invent a pat answer for every passage that he wants to gainsay away from all Christians. First, he wants us to think Paul does not have confidence that he will be resurrected.  Now, Joey allows Paul to have confidence in 2 Tim 4:18 that he will be preserved unto the heavenly kingdom by copping out with the executioner's sword, when Paul still had a WINTER to go in order (2 Tim. 4:21) to get excluded from the kingdom and get cast into the lake of fire. What a convoluted mess Joey's doctrine is. -- Herb Evans

 

53. Herb writes: "Believers are automatically HEIRS according to PROMISE and INHERIT the millennial kingdom by being Christ's and by being God's SON."

 

What does this prove? Esau was an HEIR:

 

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;  16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.  

 

Furthermore, we maintain that the inheritance is TWO-FOLD, having a Millennial and an eternal aspect. The eternal inheritance is through faith alone. The Millennial inheritance is through faith and patience:

 

Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith AND PATIENCE INHERIT the promises.

 

If a believer does not strive patiently against sin, the flesh and the Devil, he will NOT gain the firstborn, Millennial inheritance: -- Joey Faust

 

What a crock! Esau willingly and knowingly forfeited and sold the blessing--not the kingdom. Again Joey make conditions out of instructions. Now, we must have patience in order to enter the kingdom. What fantasy and misuse of scripture! -- Herb Evans

 

1 Peter 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should INHERIT a blessing. -- Joey Faust

 

Joey cannot distinguish between a blessing and a kingdom. -- Herb Evans

 

Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the REWARD OF THE INHERITANCE: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. -- Joey Faust

 

Reward of the inheritance is wood, hay, stubble, and gold, silver, precious stones. What is Joey’s problem? He is like a Campbellite who sees baptism everywhere there is water. -- Herb Evans         

 

             Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU before, as I have also told YOU in time past, that they which SO SUCH THINGS shall NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM of God.

 

What would be the reason for Paul continually reminding the saints that the people which DO such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God, if it was not his intention to use the fact as a WARNING against such conduct? Paul not only wanted them to be reminded of this danger, but he also knew that there would arise many people who would seek to deny the warning:   -- Joey Faust

 

It is a warning but a warning to who? What Joey fails to include here is Gal. 5:19, 20, in which Paul lists those works of the FLESH, which also includes HERESIES. Tough luck for heretic Faust. Paul contrasts these works of the flesh with the crucified flesh and the fruits of the Spirit in 5:22-24 and walking in the Spirit. Context, Joey, Context. The believer's flesh is DEAD, crucified with Christ. Such WERE some of you. -- Herb Evans

 

Ephesians 5:5 For this YE know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ [I thought Joey believed in the spiritual kingdom of Christ that we are translated into] and of God. 6 LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH THEM. -- Joey Faust

 

Man, Joey has a lot of folks in the lake of fire, i.e., enviers, foolish talkers, jesters. I wonder how many folks are really going to make it in Joey's scheme. We wonder why Joey Faust did not use 1 Cor. 6:9-10 for his indictment of believers. But then we read there “BUT SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: BUT YE ARE WASHED, BUT YE ARE SANCTIFIED, BUT YE ARE JUSTIFIED” in 1 Cor. 6:11. We are no longer in those categories; that is why Joey's proof texts say not to be partakers WITH THEM, the unwashed, who are so categorized. Praise de Lawd! -- Herb Evans

 

54. Herb writes: "Joey Faust thinks that all of the saved N.T. saints will be 'RAISED' (split rapturist language for the carnal raptured) but that the carnal ones will not be glorified nor have immortal, incorruptible, NEW bodies, for the Lord's FIERY breath must kill and burn them at the JSOC and put them in the lake of fire (to satisfy Faust's insatiable, sadistic desire for believers to suffer, die, and burn)."

 

First of all, being "raised from the dead" is not the same as being "translated." The timing of the translation, and who is included in the pre-trib translation has little to do with the doctrine of Millennial Exclusion. The proof is in the fact that most of the earlier believers in Millennial Exclusion were also split rapturists, yet Edwin Wilson (now passed away), Arlen Chitwood, and Gary Whipple (more modern advocates of Millennial Exclusion) believe in a total pre-trib rapture. --Joey Faust      

 

Is that right, Mr. Faust?  Raised from the dead as Christ was raised has everything to do with it. For if  both groups are caught up in different kinds of bodies, you have a real problem. Either way, if both groups do have or do not have resurrection bodies (on which Joey cannot seem to make up his mind), Joey has a real problem, regardless of what some of his millennial exclusionists teach. -- Herb Evans

 

            Secondly, it is not my desire at all for believers to be punished by their Lord. If this was my desire, I would not have spent six years researching and writing the book. Herb does not know what is in my heart. And if he believed the Lord's warning in Matthew 5:22, he would be much more careful in his words. Is it "sadistic" to teach that the Lord may sometimes chastise some saints with sickness or death in this time of the Lord's patience and longsuffering (1 Corinthians 11)? If it is not, then why is it "sadistic" to think that our Lord, who is a consuming fire, will chastise some rebellious children with His fiery breath when He appears to JUDGE them? Herb is doing the only thing he can do: appeal to the emotions of his readers. But I have read scores of debates between Universalists (no hellers) and Baptists. Each time, the Universalists are forced to argue in the same way Herb argues against my view. It is the methodology of all who are wrong or weak in their position. -- Joey Faust

 

Yawn! Burp! Herb Evans does not devote a whole book to earthly chastisement, which might, if done, be called sadistic. You spent six years for nothing. That has to hurt. -- Herb Evans

 

Furthermore, I only maintain that some Christians will be slain at the Lord's coming and be banished to the underworld [hell-Herb Evans]. This is what I mean by "mortal" (i.e., "subject to death," Web.1828). The exact nature of the body is open to debate. Jesus is clear that the BODIES of some of His disciples could be subject unto Hell (underworld): -- Joey Faust

 

Joey maintains much and proves little. So, is Joey saying that if it is a new incorruptible body, it is subject to death? Does Joey realize that all of Jesus disciples were not saved? Namely, Judas. --Herb Evans

 

Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that PREACH ye upon the housetops.  28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy [note the absence of your] BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

 

             Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy WHOLE BODY should be cast into hell.

 

It would be interesting to hear how Herb, according to his prophetic views, coupled with King James Onlyism, will get around these verses without embracing my views! Herb believes that only CHRISTIANS are resurrected BEFORE the Millennium. He maintains that ONLY unbelievers (false professors, etc.) are raised at the Great White Throne (after the Millennium). But Jesus warns His disciples that they could experience HELL in their BODIES. But Revelation 20 says that HELL gives up the dead and the bodies of unbelievers are then cast into the LAKE OF FIRE (not Hell):  -- Joey Faust

 

          Herb Evans does not have to get around anything, especially Jesus’ preaching instructions along with the message, which he gave to the disciples (including Judas), whom he sent out, and Herb Evans does not have to pluck out his eyes or cut off his members to avoid the above happening to him. Perhaps, Joey does this? -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. -- Joey Faust

 

          Ho hum! By this time, believers, both carnal and non carnal have been to the JSOC and the marriage supper and are enjoying eternal life. These are lost folks at the Great White Throne Judgment. Joey tends to get his time frames mixed up. The two events (JSOC and GWTJ) are separated by 1000 years. -- Herb Evans

 

You can now watch Herb begin to sweat. He will do everything he can to try to say the warning Jesus gave to His disciples in Matthew 5 was about the LAKE OF FIRE. In other words, Herb will try to say that the HELL mentioned in Revelation 20:13 is not the HELL Jesus mentions in Matthew 5. Herb is in a greater mess since HELL means "under." A Lake of Fire is not properly a HELL. It is not the PIT under the earth. But it gets worse for Herb. -- Joey Faust

 

          Sweat? Herb Evans is having the time of his life, watching Joey twist and turn. And certainly, Herb Evans will not sweat at Joey's prediction of what Herb Evans will do. That is all HYPE. Whatever Herb believes about Gehenna (what Joey is alluding to) or the lake of fire, Herb Evans does not believe that it is in heaven or that it will be in heaven to await the carnal believers as Joey believes. Herb has already done with Joey's passages all that Herb is going to do. Still, there are flames in Hades as well. Moot points, despite the verbal gymnastics. No, Herb will agree that the hell in Matthew is the hell in this passage, despite Joey's prediction.--Herb Evans

 

After he has tried to find a way to turn the warning of Jesus in Matthew 5 concerning HELL into a warning about the Lake of Fire [which Herb never did], he must then deal with Mark 9:

 

Mark 9:43 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the KINGDOM OF GOD with one eye, than having TWO EYES to be cast into HELL fire:

 

            Here Jesus tells us that the Apostle John (9:38) must do what he can to avoid sin in order to keep his body out of Hell. However, Jesus goes further, and this time, tells us that John may go to Hell in body DURING THE KINGDOM. Herb must now become an Amillennialist and try to say that the KINGDOM in Mark 9 is not the MILLENNIUM. This is what happened to A.W. Pink. Not many people realize that he had written a long treatise against Millennial Exclusion, and then, during the debate, lost his mind and realized he could only resist the truth of Millennial Exclusion on AMILLENNIAL grounds! -- Joey Faust

 

Well, here we have some new Faust material. Some folks are going to enter the millennial kingdom of God with one eye, if they do not pluck one of them out. I wonder if Joey or his crew have done that, especially his promoter, who joined a dating service before divorcing his wife and ran around with her before the divorce. Huh?      

John? John was told not to forbid them, who were casting out devils in Christ's name. And then drops to "whosoever" in verse 41 (one reward group) and "whosoever" in 42 (a lost group). Does Joey know what the word "whosoever" means?   Context, Joey, context! -- Herb Evans 

         

Finally, Herb makes another mistake in his quote. I maintain that the Lord's fiery breath is the same thing in principle as the Lake of Fire. It LIGHTS the Lake of Fire which will later appear before His throne. Therefore, unfaithful believers are not burned by the Lord's breath and then placed into the Lake of Fire. They are burned by the Lord's breath and then banished to the underworld of Hell.  -- Joey Faust

 

Joey can maintain anything he wants. Proving it is another matter. Then how does the same thing light the other thing that is the same thing? Huh? It is hard to plug up so many convoluted and contradictory holes. If they are slain at the JSOC? How are they slain there? If it is the Lord’s breath that slays them there, how and when are they then placed in the lake of fire? How much time do they spend in the lake of fire before being banished to the underworld hell, where there are also flames. Does Joey Faust read the science fiction of Robert Heinlein and Isaac Asimov?  For this stuff is not in the scripture. Heretic Joey must have made it up. Joey plays down hell to be the underworld, softening the fact that hell also has flames like the lake of fire, for he feels like the reader has already to much to bear, let alone a second burning of believers for the remainder of the 1000 years. We have your number, Mr. Faust.  No believer is burned by the Lord’s breath. Without scripture Joey has imagined all this and forced it into the JSOC. -- Herb Evans

 

55. Herb writes: "All believers will have NEW glorified bodies. There are NO mortal bodies at the JSOC."

 

What would it prove if believers had bodies that were NOT subject to earthly death at the Judgment Seat? Would this mean that God's FIERY BREATH could not burn them? -- Joey Faust           

 

          Yes, as a matter of fact, it does mean that. God does not burn glorified bodies. And God’ BREATH. That is a fabrication and figment of Joey Faust's imagination and science fiction. -- Herb Evans

 

Would this mean that GOD could not send them to Hell? Did not God already cast down some ANGELS and lock them in Hell (2 Peter 2:4)? Do angels have bodies like mortal men on earth? Therefore, even if we allowed that there was some CHANGE in the body of EVERY Christian at the Judgment Seat, this would no more mean that they were immune to God's chastisement, than angels or the DEVIL himself, is immune to God's punishments!: -- Joey Faust

 

The angels were not redeemed or saved and did not have glorified bodies. Only Jesus had a glorified body, and it was able to go through walls. It is not a question of what God could or can do. It is a question of whether God lies to us or breaks His word. God did not promise the devil or angels eternal life; He did promise us eternal life. -- Herb Evans

 

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.  -- Joey Faust

 

There Joey goes again, with another irrelevant verse. -- Herb Evans

 

             On the other hand, Herb assumes that the verses he quotes to attempt to prove that every Christian will have an immortal body, are without any conditions. But this fails to realize that all promises must be compared and checked by other Scriptures. There are many verses that appear to teach that there are no conditions in regard to answered prayer. But when we examine the rest of Scripture, we find that there are qualifications. The promises God gave the Israelites concerning the promised land do not immediately appear to contain conditions. Yet, the generation to whom the promises were given, were overthrown in the wilderness! The New Testament repeatedly warns us about such historic realities: -- Joey Faust

 

Herb realizes that there are only two kinds of bodies available to us. Mortal and immortal, unless Joey can give us a third from scripture. Joey's desperate attempt, trying to gainsay God's promises, is readily apparent as he tries to place CONDITIONS on everything. Joey is the best commentary on what he believes. All one must do is drag it out of him. He deals in SHOCK THEOLOGY. -- Herb Evans

 

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be IGNORANT, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.  5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.          

 

Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

            Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; -- Joey Faust

 

          Joey Faust throughout this exchange has repeatedly posted examples of Israel and verses on Christian living, as if we did not believe in living moral and separated lives. Many times, Joey's verses allude to unbelief as the above verse, and Joey somehow transfers the examples to people, who do believe. Still, Joey cannot find one verse where God places a believer in hell or the lake of fire. He hints and infers his way through these verses, trying to make them apply to the carnal believer. Yet, Joey never tells us where the line is between carnality and non carnality and how much of each is required. It is the old Catholic play of You’ll know when you get there. -- Herb Evans

 

My book deals with the verses Herb raises, in detail, and shows from the context of the passages, that they have conditions. And again, even if this point is ignored or assailed, the fact remains that a body which man and earth cannot corrupt is in NO WAY a body which GOD HIMSELF cannot temporarily destroy! Baptist preacher, Gary Whipple (who also teaches Millennial Exclusion, etc.), maintains that all Christians will appear in a REDEEMED, Adamic body (like before the fall), and that only those Christians that are found worthy will then be given the GLORIFIED body. The others will be banished until after the Millennium. There is much to commend this view.     --Joey Faust 

 

Your book, your book! Your book is not the authority nor does your book confront the issues that I put forward in MY own words. It is obvious that you read too many other people's books. Who cares what Whipple teaches without any scripture to back him up, and who cares about a book that cannot prove that Christian believers are either thrown in hell or the lake of fire? -- Herb Evans

 

56. Herb writes: "Faust cannot even be sure that he will not burn in his Baptist Purgatory nor be shut out of the millennial kingdom."

 

Herb is correct. -- Joey Faust

 

I know that I am correct. Like a Catholic, Joey doesn’t have an ounce of assurance of continuous salvation and is trying to teach those, who do have such assurance, his heresy to undermine their faith. -- Herb Evans          

 

May the Lord have mercy upon me as I fear Him and hope for the prize. --Joey Faust

 

Joey doesn’t even know what the prize is that he is working for; Joey is working for continuous salvation and continuous eternal life any way that you cut it. The Lord will not show Joey mercy until he repents of his heresy.  -- Herb Evans

 

However, I have shown in another article, that Herb cannot be absolutely sure he is not a false professor. -- Joey Faust

 

Now, isn’t that something. Joey is sure that Herb cannot be sure that he  is not a false professor, but can Joey be sure that he is not a false professor or a false prophet? This double tongued, double minded, inconsistent, pat answer heretic has some gall.  Herb is absolutely sure because Herb has believed God’s word. --Herb Evans

 

            He interprets most of the warnings to Christians, as warnings to false professors in regard to eternal salvation. Therefore, Herb must wait until he has finished his course, and endured until the end, before he can know FOR SURE that he has not simply been a FALSE PROFESSOR his whole "Christian" life. Therefore, Herb has traded in assurance in eternity, in an attempt to gain assurance in regard to the Millennial reign. He has the gift confused with the prize. -- Joey Faust

 

Now, this is the epitome of illogical reasoning. First, Joey must know that at least some warnings are to the unsaved and false professors. Why does Joey not have to wait to find out that he is not the false professor that he is sure that he is not? Joey, the apostle, of uncertainty tries to transfer his uncertainty to Herb Evans, who is certain of his destiny.  It is Joey that is confused about eternal life and salvation. Joey needs to get straight on that, before he ever considers kingdom ground.  -- Herb Evans

 

57. Herb writes: "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed ALL judgment [NOT punishment and NOT chastisement] unto the Son: --John 5:22"

 

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I REBUKE AND CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and repent. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with ME in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with MY FATHER in his throne.  -- Joey Faust

 

I don’t know what Joey has in mind here or what he thinks I am saying, but judgment is not the same as punishment and chastening, for these occur after there is judgment. Still, my quote should be taken in the context in which it was spoken, regarding our elder brother exercising the judgment at the JSOC and that judgment is not and does not always demand chastisement or punishment. This is a judgment in reference to rewards. But if Joey is contradicting and denying Jesus, when He said that the Father hath committed ALL judgment to the Son as John 5:22 says, be our guest. We simply pointed out that the word was judgment in that particular verse and not something else. So, if Joey believes that the Father has committed all chastisement and punishment to the Son, let him have at it. -- Herb Evans            

 

Revelation 3:19 dismantles Herb's strange theory. People say amazing things to escape accountability. Also, Herb did not check the word "judge" in a dictionary or by the rest of Scripture. Webster says the word means: "To try; to examine and PASS SENTENCE ON." Notice how "judge" is used in the following Scriptures: -- Joey Faust

 

           We would not contest this understanding of the word "judge." What we would contest is that Joey does only gives the narrow definition of the word, limiting it only to punishment. Wait until these beauty pageant judges find out that they are supposed to punish the non winners. The same can be said of foot races.  -- Herb Evans

 

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall JUDGE his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. -- Joey Faust

 

This passage establishes neither Joey's narrower view nor my broader view of judgment nor this judgment's location. The writer of Hebrews is quoting Psalm 7:8, in relation to the congregation of Israel not the JSOC or the GWTJ. But Joey never saw a verse on judgment that he did not like. --Herb Evans

 

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth JUDGE and make war.

 

James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, THE JUDGE standeth before the door.

 

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God WILL JUDGE.

 

If these verses (and there are multitudes of others) do not speak of punishment or chastisement, we would like to know what they speak of! -- Joey Faust

 

Obviously, Joey's myopic vision will not allow him to see any kind of judgment that is not punitive; said judgment must also be synonymous with the lake of fire and the JSOC. Joey is the Overcomers’ cult's counterpart to Campbellism, regarding certain words. They like water. Joey the sadist never has come onto a verse that contains fire, burn, punishment, stripes, torment, and judgment that he does not like. -- Herb Evans 

 

58. Herb writes: "The Bible teaches that ALL Christians are SCOURGED--not just the carnal."

 

Herb does not realize that believers must PROPERLY RESPOND to God's chastisement. They may respond in two rebellious ways: --Joey Faust

 

So??? Why does not Herb realize that? What does that have to do with EVERY son receiving chastisement and scourging? Or is this another misdirection play?  -- Herb Evans

 

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, DESPISE NOT thou the chastening of the Lord, NOR FAINT when thou art rebuked of him:

 

To ignore God's chastisement, or to blame Him in self-pity and sinful discouragement, will hinder God's work in our lives. If we continue to respond sinfully to His correction, we will be dealt with at the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:9-11). --Joey Faust

 

While we would agree on how not to respond to God's chastisement, we do not agree on what happens, if we don’t respond correctly. Still, Heb. 12:5 is not talking about the JSOC. Joey says, without proof, that the offenders will be dealt with at the JSOC (killed and thrown in the lake of fire). We say that you get knocked in the head HERE on earth or you get your pilot light blown out. --Herb Evans

 

 59. Herb writes: "In the first place, chastisement and punishment are two different things."

 

My book shows from the Bible and dictionaries that the two words are interchangeable, especially in 1611. There are different purposes for chastisement. But understanding the purposes is not necessary to believing that what God says He will do, He will certainly do! This is how Baptists have answered the Universalists for years. Herb has simply jumped to a conclusion without checking the words in a concordance or dictionary. -- Joey Faust

 

Punishment and chastisement are not completely interchangeable or synonymous.  Both Chastisement and Punishment are synonymous as far as in the pain that is inflicted. Still, the main idea in punishment is punitive pain as retribution, while the main idea of chastisement is correction pain or the infliction of pain to correct. Joey does not want this distinction to surface, because he is trying to get the lost and the carnal believer both to experience the same kind of retribution. Certain absent definitions from Joey's appeal to Webster 1828 to be examined are:

 

“Punish; to pain. Punished; Afflicted with pain or evil as the RETRIBUTION of a crime or offence.”

 

“Chastise; correct by punishing. Chastisement; correction; punishment; pain inflicted for punishment and correction, either by stripes or otherwise. Chasten; to correct by punishment.”  

   

While there is some interchangeability between the two words, Joey is displaying his ignorance of the roots of each, for Joey just quoted a verse that says that God chastens those that he LOVES. Chastisement is meant to be loving and corrective. When God throws lost people into the lake of fire, he does not love them nor is He trying to correct them or chastise them in love. God punishes with pain in either case.  Still, regardless of what dictionary manipulation Joey can come up with, the main idea of chastisement of believers is correction. The main idea of punishment of unbelievers is inflicting misery.      --Herb Evans

 

60. Herb writes: AWhat kind of correction is needed after one's life is over? Fathers are supposed to chastise their children unto correction but NOT to punish them (Pro. 3:11,12)."

 

Suppose a father tells an older child that he must do his chores and that he will call in to check up on him, and that he must have everything accomplished and in place when he returns. He calls, and finds he is not being obeyed. He gives his child a verbal warning over the phone. He tells him he may no longer go outside into the yard (warning chastisements). The father then returns home a few hours later. The child has not completed his chores, and is caught in sin. "What kind of correction is needed after one's life is over?" What kind? A good scourging is needed; a scourging that shows the angels, and any other rational creature that may be watching, that when the Lord says He will return and reward every Christian according to his or her works, He means exactly what He says! What kind of correction is needed after one's life is over? Why doesn't Herb ask this question in regard to positive rewards? Why should REWARDS be given after life is over? Is not ONE purpose of a reward to AFFIRM good behaviour? What would be the purpose of rewarding a Christian after death? God has many purposes. And if it is true that He will reward good behavior in His saints, then He will surely reward bad behaviour (Col.3:25, 2 Cor.5:9-11, Luke 12:47). -- Joey Faust

 

Joey can suppose all he wants. We are not interested in supposition nor are we interested in a pontification that states without scripture that scourging is NEEDED after death. As for Joey’s insistence that the scourging is the lake of fire that borders on insanity. Joey blew that one big time. If you want a counter illustration, parents whip their children; they don’t throw them in the fire unless they want a legitimate visit from social services. Still, the O.T. saints were commanded to stone their rebellious children, as a last resort to their being incorrigible.  --Herb Evans

 

61. Herb writes: "Our heavenly Father chastises His adopted, saved children on this earth, but He does not punish them."

 

What a mess of modern, vain philosophy! What does Herb call it when God made some saints SICK in Corinth? What does Herb call it when God KILLED some saints in Corinth (1 Corinthians 11)? My point is that whatever one wishes to call it, Christians may receive the same thing at the Judgment Seat of Christ: -- Joey Faust  

 

I call it chastisement by sickness, and chastisement by death, so their spirits could be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (JSOC). Even the Israelites were commanded to kill their incorrigible and rebellious children. Yes, they receive some things at the JSOC, i.e., wood, hay, and stubble at the JSOC No, they do not receive sickness or death at the JSOC. They do receive gold, silver, precious stones and wood, hay, stubble, unless Joey can show us that they receive something else beside at the JSOC with direct concrete proof texts as opposed to Joey Faust indirect hints of something. -- Herb Evans

 

"Punish: 2. To chastise; as a father punishes his child for disobedience." (Web. 1828).        -- Joey Faust

 

We wonder why Joey did not include some other definitions from Webster 1828, like:

 

“Punish: to pain. Or Punished: Afflicted with pain or evil as the RETRIBUTION of a crime or offence”.

 

The main idea of punishment is pain inflicted for retribution.

 

Joey also neglected to give us other Webster 1828 definitions for chastening:

 

“Chastise; correct by punishing.  Chastisement; Correction; punishment; pain inflicted for punishment and correction, either by stripes or otherwise. Chasten: to correct by punishment.”

 

Both Chastisement and Punishment are synonymous as far as pain being inflicted. Still, the main idea in punishment is punitive pain as retribution, while the main idea of chastisement is punishment or the infliction of pain for correction. Joey does not want this distinction to surface, because he wants the lost and the carnal believer both to experience the same kind of retribution in the lake of fire. -- Herb Evans

 

Lamentations 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath. 22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:  39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the PUNISHMENT of his sins? –Joey Faust

 

Obviously, a living man is under consideration here in general. All living men are not saints. And Yes, pain is inflicted on earth for one's sins. But we doubt whether this man saw the JSOC. -- Herb Evans   

 

Lamentations 4:22 The PUNISHMENT of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will NO MORE carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins. – Joey Faust

 

Obviously, a nation is under consideration here not an individual. -- Herb Evans

 

2 Corinthians 2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this PUNISHMENT, which was inflicted of many. 7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. --Joey Faust

 

                Obviously, the Lord did not punish the man, the church punished him unto correction, judging by the outcome. -- Herb Evans

 

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer PUNISHMENT, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?  30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall JUDGE HIS PEOPLE. --Joey Faust

 

          The Hebrews were being asked what they SUPPOSED or THOUGHT was the proper punishment for the offense committed. The comparison is to physical death under Moses on earth. We do not contest the fact that God judges his people here on earth. What we do contest is what that judgment above consists. Joey automatically sees the lake of fire and death at the JSOC here. We do not. The question regarding judgment is how, when , where, what, and why -- Herb Evans

 

62. Herb writes: "More important is the one, who wields the Rod of Chastisement? always the Father. Yet it is our elder brother, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge Christians at the judgment seat of Christ, and that judgment is going to be to reward his brothers not to punish them nor even to chastise them."

 

We have already seen that these strange, "antinomian inspired" distinctions are without foundation. Herb offers no proof-texts. Notice again (as a proof of Herb's sloppy scholarship in regard to this whole debate), how Scripture teaches that the Lord Jesus (Elder Brother in one picture) CHASTISES His saints: -- Joey Faust

 

We were using Joey’s terms as a side comment. You never see a ROD in Jesus’ hand except when he rules, yet we readily admit that he correctively and lovingly rebukes and chastens those whom, He loves on earth (churches) but not at the JSOC. Our main point here before being sidetracked into word games was that the judgment at the JSOC is for rewards and not for chastisement OR punishment. ---Herb Evans

 

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; THESE THINGS SAITH the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 19 As many as I love, I REBUKE AND CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and repent. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in MY throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with MY FATHER in his throne. -- Joey Faust

 

          Obviously, this is not the JSOC but churches here on earth. We do not contest this passage, but we duly note, however,  that the “as many as I love” was written to a specific church, regarding the chastisement. It does not say to him that I love, I rebuke and chasten. It does say “to him that overcometh,” which is obviously written to individuals in a mixed multitude of both saved and unsaved, considering, especially, this type of Laodicean church.  Obviously, all would not be spued out. -- Herb Evans

 

             The Lord Jesus is speaking in Revelation 3. Jesus says He CHASTENS. He does not just give out prizes. Herb fails to understand that the picture of Jesus being our Elder Brother is only ONE picture. He is also our Bridegroom! He is also our SHEPHERD. And He is also our LORD! Our Lord will temporarily punish rebellious saints (both now and at the Judgment Seat), and He will also PUNISH the wicked. He does not just leave the ROD to the Father:  -- Joey Faust

 

Just saying it does not make it so, no matter how often Joey says it. See the above answer. This is a church setting, composed of saint and sinner-not a JSOC setting.  -- Herb Evans

 

            Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute JUDGMENT upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.   -- Joey Faust

 

Joey was not doing to bad for a while, with his word games, but now he is back to his time frame boo boos. When the Lord comes back WITH HIS SAINTS to judge ungodly sinners in this way, It is AFTER the JSOC. After the Marriage. -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my REWARD is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Is this REWARD only positive? -- Joey Faust

 

No, wood, hay, and stubble rewards are far from positive, especially when they get burned up. -- Herb Evans

 

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall REWARD every man according to his works.

 

“Every man" means "every man." Is the reward here ONLY the Elder Brother giving out crowns? -- Joey Faust

 

If Joey Faust would pay attention to the time frame here of the second coming in glory, he would realize that it was not even talking about the JSOC at all. Ho hum!  -- Herb Evans        

 

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I COME as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. -- Joey Faust

 

If we are in the tribulation here, and we are, this passage of the vial judgments does not apply to N.T. saints. We wish Joey would get up to speed on this; it would help him to not post inappropriate and misleading proof texts. -- Herb Evans

 

            Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 

Is the reward here ONLY the Elder Brother giving out crowns?  --Joey Faust

 

Well, finally Joey got into the right time frame. Well ... ah ... Joey, a crown is all that is mentioned here in regard to someone taking it. What did you have in mind? Commit yourself Joey; we can’t read your mind. What else is here in this passage? There does not seem to be any eternal life taken from anyone. -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.  --Joey Faust

 

Well, Joey has got himself out of the tribulation and back into the context of a church, who must watch or face the penalty of not knowing the hour, hardly the Lake of fire or being slain at the JSOC or the stripes. -- Herb Evans

 

Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom THE LORD when HE COMETH shall FIND WATCHING: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes   -- Joey Faust

 

Oh dear, there Joey goes again--hopping back and forth into the wrong time frame, supposing that every “watch” admonition means the same time frame. That is the danger of concordance Bible study. Joey does not realize that this happens AFTER the WEDDING in Luke 12:36. And the WEDDING is after the JSOC, but don’t tell Joey that. His other mistake is to imagine that the word servant always means a saved person. Sorry, but Joey’s much desired stripes are out of his reach here. --Herb Evans

 

Is the reward in the above Scriptures ONLY the Elder Brother giving out crowns?! This whole idea is clearly a product of lazy, Laodicean scholarship, which seeks to downgrade the "terror of the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 5:9-11 at all costs. -- Joey Faust          

 

 We don’t see any reward in the above scripture. We see only that Joey is in the wrong place in time. Even Peter questioned who the statements were to, but Joey has a  problem nailing it down even after the fact. It would be nice if Joey could define the terror of the Lord with context. If Joey knows the terror of the Lord, what men does he persuade, lost or saved men? -- Herb Evans

 

63. Herb writes: "This is one of Joey's key passages [ 2 Cor.5:9-1] for proving that a Christian gets bad/negative rewards or punishment at the JSOC. Unfortunately for Joey, EVERYONE at the JSOC receives for the good and bad done in his old body? not just a certain group. Note that the good and bad relate to the OLD imperfect body and not to the soul nor to the NEW body. The believer's soul and spirit are taken care of by the blood of Christ and cannot be punished. The old body of sins is destroyed and changed into a glorified, new body (despite Joey's denial), so that it cannot be punished. (Note that nothing is said about the JSOC in (1 Thess. 4:6). It is just inferred like so many of his other proof texts.)"

 

Now, according to Herb, it is only the OLD BODY that gets a whipping at the Judgment Seat, and Herb says this body is gone. This is incredible. -- Joey Faust

 

No, Joey has it wrong. Herb does not believe that any “body," old or new, gets a whipping there. Still, the “old body" thing, proposed by Herb, was in response to the Joey’s suggestion that there wasn’t any resurrected body for the carnal believer at the JSOC. Herb does believe the old body is gone at the JSOC and the believer has the new body at this point, however, that is what we have been trying to tell Joey. -- Herb Evans

 

Herb says the laziness and sins were committed in the OLD BODY, and therefore, the CHRISTIAN at the Judgment Seat cannot receive for sins committed on earth. -- Joey Faust

 

No, Herb said nothing about laziness, but Herb does say that no sins will cause punishment or stripes or death at the JSOC. But it is interesting that Joey, among the other things he has told us, now believes that “laziness” will send believers to the lake of fire and to hell. Man, Joey just about has everyone in the lake of fire.  Works are judged at the JSOC--not sins. -- Herb Evans

 

But let us now ask, WHAT will the faithful Christians be rewarded for at the Judgment Seat? Are they rewarded for good deeds done at the Judgment Seat? Of course not. They are rewarded for good deeds done IN THE BODY on earth. Why is it that Herb allows believers to be rewarded POSITIVELY for deeds done in the body, but he does not allow believers to be rewarded NEGATIVELY for deeds done in the body?! Scripture is clear. Herb's mystical antinomianism is wrong and deadly: --Joey Faust

 

Herb does allow for negative rewards at the judgment seat-wood, hay, and stubble.  It is what is done for Christ out of love and not vain glory that gets the gold, silver, and precious stones. Now, that was not such a hard kindergarten question. Joey’s works are works under duress. That will get him wood, hay, and stubble, if he ever makes it there.   –Herb Evans

 

Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong SHALL RECEIVE for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. -- Joey Faust

 

Now, it does not say WHERE, let alone the JSOC. But serving Christ wrongly should receive wrong stuff here and at the JSOC, like wood, hay, and stubble. You know, like Santa Claus brings you a lump of coal, if you are not up to snuff. -- Herb Evans

 

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that EVERY ONE MAY RECEIVE the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good OR BAD.

 

The ONE who RECEIVES is the ONE standing at the Judgment Seat. Herb somehow imagines (at least I think so) that the phrase "in his body," means that he RECEIVES THE REWARD IN HIS OLD BODY. -- Joey Faust

 

No, we already disputed that crazy idea. It is more conducive to what Joey believes about a carnal raised body that is not resurrected. The believer stands with his new glorified, resurrected body. The issue here is RECEIVING at the JSOC for what was done in the old body. I hope we do not have to cover this again. We RECEIVE the GOOD--gold, silver, and precious stones. We RECEIVE the BAD--wood, hay, and stubble. -- Herb Evans

 

But what body receives the GOOD rewards? The THINGS DONE are past tense. The good and the bad are past tense. The ONE is present tense. The ONE who RECEIVES is the ONE at the Judgment Seat. -- Joey Faust

 

The NEW BODY receives the GOOD and the BAD REWARDS. Shoosh! This is really getting redundant. The bad rewards are burned and the believer suffers LOSS-not death. The good rewards stand the test, hence reward is maintained. -- Herb Evans

 

11 Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

Does it really PERSUADE anyone to holiness to tell them that "your old sinful body may experience the terror of the Lord"? It is absurd. We persuade men because unfaithful Christians will be raised in their bodies to stand trial. The CHRISTIAN himself (not some old body) may then experience the TERROR of the Lord. He is a consuming fire. If He sometimes slays Christians in this life, He will certainly slay some of them there, on the day of reckoning! -- Joey Faust         

 

Well, it sure caused some to FEAR, when they saw Ananias and Sapphira get their pilot lights blown out. They did not think it absurd (Acts 5:5). Still, will anyone be persuaded of  your view of terror being the lake of fire or the JSOC? Something that you are forcing into the passage. But then, how did these KNOW the terror of the Lord, not having experienced it? And who were they passing the info on to and PERSUADING? Saints? Or men?  Now, it is time for Joey Faust to tell us the kind of a body that will be "RAISED" to stand trial? If it is not the old mortal body, Joey must then agree with me that it is the incorruptible body. If it is not the new resurrected, glorified body, then what other body is there? Joey has already committed himself to the view that the carnal Christians are not in heaven, when they die. So, when they are "raised" and not “resurrected," as Joey has also committed to, what kind of body are the carnal Christian "raised?” Huh?  If Joey claims that the terror of the Lord is the slaying of Christians at the JSOC, then why cannot the slaying of Christians in this life be termed the terror of the Lord (something he has already said is absurd)?    -- Herb Evans

 

64. Herb writes: "What is received for the Faust emphasized 'BAD' things done in the body? Wood, hay, and stubble are received and subsequently burned up!"

 

That is some deal! I get to live a life of sloth and unfaithfulness, and then the worse thing that can happen at the Judgment Seat is that my UNFAITHFULNESS burns up?! -- Joey Faust

 

Sucha deal! The King of the Jews offers sucha deal. The GIFT of eternal life is sucha deal bought and paid for buy the blood of Christ. Unfortunately, the rewards are not procured that way. Joey has the GIFT of God and the works of the saints mixed up. Loss of rewards is not sucha deal. -- Herb Evans

 

            This is TERROR? Does God burn up my bad works in such a ferocious way that it scares me and motivates me to service? [note the circular argument, since Joey first assumes this is the terror of the Lord at the JSOC] Can you imagine this with an earthly judge? Can you imagine a man saying, "I am afraid to go to court. I have heard stories that this judge grabs your ticket and crumbles it up into a BALL and then lights it on FIRE! I just don't think I would be able to endure such a thing!" This is ridiculous. Paul teaches that more than this is RECEIVED at the Judgment Seat: -- Joey Faust

 

Well, we can now add “terror” to the Campbellite counterparts to water-fire, burn, stripes, chastise, punish, destroy, and now terror. To the “overcomer cult” they mean the lake of fire, hell, and being slain by God at the JSOC, even though they are not mentioned in those places. Joey need not argue with Herb Evans about this, for it is God that tells us that the works are burned and not the believer. If that is ridiculous, then we stand ridiculed in the Lord and loving it.  -- Herb Evans    

 

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, HIM shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

Verse 17 interprets the passage for us and shows WHAT gets destroyed by the TERROR of the Lord. Yet, this man, after missing the Millennium, will be restored and "saved" into eternity (v.15). --Joey Faust

 

Unfortunately, the temple that gets destroyed here is the old body, an earthly body on earth. No millennium is mentioned. We are glad that Joey mentioned this. Since Joey has committed himself to not allowing the old body, whatever he thinks that is or is not to be “resurrected” or  “raised.” He has not told us what body it is, unfortunately, that will be “raised.” Notice that the Holy Spirit is in the temple of God, the old body, in Joey's own proof text. Now, with just a tiny bit of logical deduction, we can determine here that it is the HOLY temple of God that is under threat of destruction, the old body. Elementary, Watson! Perhaps, Joey will change his mind or come up with another pat answer to plug up the hole in this problem that he has. Nothing here about the millennium, the lake of fire, or hell. This is all a figment of a deluded heretic, blinded by his own vain, forced theories. -- Herb Evans

 

65. Herb writes: "Joey Faust is trying to make "SAVED SO AS BY FIRE" mean 'SAVED BY FIRE.'"

 

Herb appears to think he can understand a book by reading the quotes at the start of the chapter. He appears to do the same with Scripture itself. I never state that a person is "saved by fire." I show that "by" in the King James Bible often means THROUGH or WITH:

 

"BY: 3. Through, or with..." (Webster's 1828). -- Joey Faust

 

Joey’s dictionary maneuvers provides us with the interpretation, “saved THROUGH FIRE,” just as the Campbellite favorite verse of Noah being saved “BY water,” is sometimes interpreted through water. We prefer “by water” in the sense of via water.” Neither the fire saves them nor the water. -- Herb Evans

 

This is seen in the following verse:

 

Exodus 29:18 ....it is a sweet savour, an offering made BY FIRE unto the LORD.                -- Joey Faust

 

No fair. Foul! It does not say "made so as by fire." But then his verse does tend to prove my point rather than Joey's, for the offering was not made by the fire just as the believer is not saved by the fire but  “so as by fire.” -- Herb Evans

 

Herb also imagines that the words "so as" prove that the fire does not REALLY exist. Webster defines the words "so as" with the following words: -- Joy Faust   

 

Well, Joey resorts back to misrepresentation of Herb in that Herb Evans does believe that the fire actually exits, for how could the wood, hay, and stubble be burned up by the fire? Cute but not very convincing. --Herb Evans

 

"'There is something equivalent in France and Scotland; SO AS it is hard calumny upon our soil to affirm that so excellent a fruit will not grow here.' But in like phrases, we now use THAT; 'So that it is a hard calumny...'" (Web.1828).

 

Applying this definition to 1 Corinthians 3:15, it would mean something similar to, "He himself shall be saved; yet so THAT IT IS by fire." Scripture uses the words "so as" in this way:   -- Joey Faust

 

Perhaps, Joey should go in for dictionary maneuvering rather than false doctrine. “SO AS IT IS” is not the same as “SO AS BY.” Note that Joey leaves the "so" and  steals the “it is” from Webster's quote, reverses the words, and incorporates it into 1 Cor. 3:15. All this and all Webster was alluding to is that “SO AS" is now replaced by "THAT.” What a shyster!  I sure would not buy a used car from him. -- Herb Evans

 

Esther 9:27 The Jews ordained, and took upon them, and upon their seed, and upon all such as joined themselves unto them, SO AS it should not fail, that they would keep these two days according to their writing, and according to their appointed time every year;  -- Joey Faust

 

Hey, explain "SO AS" as a "THAT" here, without our objection but it still does not make Joey's strained case in 1 Cor.  3:15. It would then  say, "he shall be saved, that by fire," which would amount to the same thing as "so as by fire." Joey still can't get the man burned. Only the works are burned.  --Herb Evans

 

66. Herb writes: "Noah and his family were saved by water, right? Oh? No? It says eight souls were saved 'BY WATER' (1 Pet. 3:20)."

 

Herb simply proves MY point here. Noah went THROUGH literal waters before he was rescued out them by the Lord causing them to asswage (Gen.8:1) This simply shows that the word "by" can mean "through" or "with" in the New Testament. -- Joey Faust

 

That is the point I was trying to make to begin with, dummy. They were not in the water, ol' boy, they were in the ark (Christ). Those in Christ will not be in the fire as well. The water did not save them. They were saved by or "via" water. By the same token, the believer is saved and not DESTROYED by or via the fire that burns up the works and tries the gold. The fire will not save the believer. Joey  even tells us that the fire is supposed to DESTROY the believer--not save him. -- Herb Evans       

 

67. Herb writes: "NEITHER passage teaches that the fire nor the water saves the participants. Contrarily, they teach that these participants are saved apart from and in spite of the fire and the water."

 

I certainly agree that fire does not save! This is where Romanism errs. My book shows that fire or any punishment does not save or merit eternal salvation. The passage in 1 Corinthians states that the carnal Christian will be RESCUED OUT OF the fire. Noah was rescued out of the water.  -- Joey Faust

 

It says no such thing. Noah was not in the water; he was in the ark (Christ). The believer is not in the fire either. -- Herb Evans

 

Since the passage in 1 Corinthians is dealing with a carnal man, and since it is a judgment passage, we conclude that the fire does HURT the man before he is rescued out of it. -- Joey Faust

 

Has Joey ever considered that we reject his conclusions?-- Herb Evans

 

Paul interprets his words in this manner when he concludes by saying that the man who defiles his temple will be DESTROYED. All Herb has proven is the very thing my book maintains; that is, that "by," the Spirit means here "through" or "with," and that the man will be saved out of it. If the MAN is literal, then so is the FIRE: -- Joey Faust

 

Then, what are Joey and I  arguing about? What is he trying to say? That the believer is destroyed so as by fire? When the man is saved so as by fire? The man is literal. The fire is literal. But the "saved out of it" is a fabrication of Joey Faust. It literally does not say that. That is another forced interpolation into scripture. --Herb Evans

 

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. -- Joey Faust

 

Onto more Joey Faust verse flinging without exegesis. Obviously, we believe that anyone who overcomes by the blood of the lamb will not be hurt of the second death (lake of fire). -- Herb Evans

 

Hebrews 10:26 For if WE sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and FIERY indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. -- Joey Faust         

 

Joey's favorite passage is Hebrews 10, obviously for as much as Joey comes back to it. But it disproves what he is trying to say. Notice that physical death under Moses is being compared. Naturally, Joey zeros in on the word "FIERY," which we must add to our Campbellite counterpart list, for he has never seen fire that he doesn't like. Of course it is fiery indignation not a fiery lake, but Joey doesn't care. He just claims it as proof of his heresy. Automatically, this is supposed to be the judgment seat of CHRIST and lake of fire by innuendo as opposed to the judgment seat of the Father, who was involved in the deaths under Moses.  -- Herb Evans

 

Mark 9:38 And JOHN answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 47 And if THINE eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: --Joey Faust

 

Joey is getting redundant, we already have commented on this verse. Joey would have more credibility with us if he or his followers would begin to pluck out their eyes, so that they could go into the kingdom with ONE eye. -- Herb Evans

 

68. Herb writes:"Faust  has violated every rule of contextual interpretation Regarding Revelation 2:11: 1. It does not say here that anyone WILL be hurt of the second death; it only says that overcomers WON'T be hurt, a promise to ALL believers like other promises in Rev. 2 & 3."

 

Where is this absurd rule that Herb quotes? Where is his example in the context of the promises? Herb offers this excuse, yet he does not deal with an entire chapter I wrote to expose it as a fable. Herb pretends that a conditional promise (overcoming) does not imply a warning.   -–Joey Faust

 

AN IMPLIED WARNING TO WHO is the question? And a Promise to who is the other question? Just like Joey loves to turn God’s “I will not's" into "I wills," he also loves to change the "shall nots" into "shalls" (here) and His "shall nots" in other places to "shalls." The only condition here is "overcoming," something Joey has made another mess of, when he likens this to works for continuous salvation. -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

Is Herb telling us that we may fail to overcome and NOT be hurt by the second death? - Joey Faust

 

Herb is telling Joey that we, who have overcome by the blood of the lamb will not be hurt by the second death or lake of fire. Herb is telling Joey that those in the churches, who have not overcome by the blood of the lamb are lost and will get hurt of the second death, if they do not get saved. Joey implies that if it says churches, everyone is automatically saved in those churches. -- Herb Evans

 

Notice the following Scripture:

 

Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague SHALL NOT be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

 

Did this nice promise fail to also imply that those WITHOUT the blood on their doors would be judged? It is absurd to think so. The "overcomer" promises is the Book of Revelation are all conditioned upon overcoming! - Joey Faust

 

There was no need of a negative implication from the positive promise, for God had  declared the negative that He would do in the previous verse (12). We have just said that the condition in Rev. 2 was overcoming by the blood of the Lamb, much like your comparative proof text. It is the blood that overcomes and not works. Anyone that would try to rob believers of God's promise is an EVIL man, and I believe that Joey Faust is such an evil man to do what he is doing. Seasoned troops can easily see through Joey, but the novices and unlearned and unstudied Christian will become his prey. The fox is in the chicken house, and some of the brethren are giving this heretic a free pass. -- Herb Evans

 

69. Herb writes: "2. Faust's condemnation that 'overcoming' means 'not to be carnal, unrepentant, or unconfessed,' which does not even hint at the Bible's definition of overcoming. He just makes it up."

 

I maintain that "overcoming" in Revelation 2 and 3 means GETTING EXPERIENTIAL VICTORY over the world, the flesh and the Devil in the Christian WALK: -- Joey Faust

 

Did you see the bullfighter  wave his cape? Joey maintains? That and a dime won’t buy a cup of coffee. Who cares what Joey maintains? Joey tells folks that garbage but never tells them HOW MUCH will get them out of being killed at the JSOC and being thrown into the lake of fire or how much will get them into it. Joey Faust is a false prophet, first class. -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: BE THOU FAITHFUL unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. -- Joey Faust

 

Did you get that, believer? Joey is suggesting that you have to die for your faith in order to have continuous eternal life and to escape the JSOC slaying and being thrown in the lake of fire. Rubbish! Again, Joey changes a promise into a condition. This is a martyr’s crown--not eternal life. -- Herb Evans

 

"Overcometh" is defined by "be thou faithful." It means to resist the Devil and ENDURE the persecutions without DENYING Jesus. This is clear, plain, and obvious to anyone who is not attempting with all their might to read their own emotional prejudices received from tradition into Scripture. --Joey Faust

 

Just like that, Joey grabs an instruction, forces it into a promise, and he comes out with a definition of overcoming. How faithful does a man have to be unto death to overcome? One hundred percent? Ninety? How much faithful to keep one out of the lake of fire? Check out a Catholic priest for the answer. -- Herb Evans

 

70. Herb writes: "3. We do not overcome by our works, we overcome the wicked one and the world by the blood of the Lamb (1 John 1:13,14; Rev. 12:11) and by the word of our testimony and by the Holy Spirit (1 John 4:4)."

 

Here Herb creates a smokescreen of confused ideas in an apparent attempt to make the reader think he has a worthy objection. --Joey Faust

 

Smokescreen? This is plain English. Plain Bible English. Is this another misdirection play?  --Herb Evans

 

The POWER we use to OVERCOME in the Christian WALK is certainly the Blood of Jesus and His daily supply of grace. This is stated repeatedly in my book. This is one reason the punishment is so severe. The power, blood and grace is so precious and so available to every saint, that it merits a severity of judgment by our Lord. If Herb is trying to say that "overcoming" in Revelation 2 and 3 simply means GET SAVED AND BECOME A CHRISTIAN, we would have to reply that such as idea is ludicrous. I have shown why in my book. Herb has responded to NONE of the arguments given. I will give a few here. First, John is writing to CHRISTIANS:

 

Now, here comes the weasel wording-the word “power" is not here. Joey claims the POWER we use to overcome, but that POWER is not enough in itself, since we must help it along by our works. This heretic really makes me sick at my stomach. -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven CHURCHES which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved US, and washed US from our sins in his own blood, 9 I John, who ALSO AM YOUR BROTHER, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

So we are to believe that the Holy Ghost is telling John's brethren, who are bought by the Blood to GET SAVED?! Is this the context of "overcome" in Revelation 2 and 3? Or is the context plainly Jesus and the Spirit exhorting BELIEVERS to CONTINUE in the RACE?:  -- Joey Faust 

 

Joey imagines that they are all saved because they are in churches. No, not to get saved, if already bought by the blood.  To be comforted in their salvation, to know that they are not doing it all for nothing. Grace and PEACE is the salutation that is extended to them. -- Herb Evans        

 

Revelation 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

The above verses are clear enough. The context of these conditional promises is Jesus exhorting the saints to HOLD FAST, GET VICTORY, and KEEP HIS WORKS unto the end. Is this how Herb thinks a lost man gets saved?  --Joey Faust

 

The reward is to those, who keep Christ's works--not their own works. Who said anything about lost men in this context of “overcomers?” Another straw man, Joey? Why shouldn't Christians be encouraged to do such things. These thing are not contested. The motive for such things is what is being contested. What should the instructions be to saved people. Don't hold fast? Don't get victory? Don't keep his works? Joey thinks that only his fellow heretics believe in doing these things. Now, I know that I have been doing a bit better job at this than one of his loose cannon promoters, who goes to a dating service for a sweetie, while still married. -- Herb Evans

 

71. Herb then reverses gears and helps me make MY argument. He lists all the conditional overcoming promises and then asks if I also believe carnal Christians will miss out on these blessings. I certainly do! Here is Herb's list:

 

a. will not eat of the hidden manna (Rev. 2:17)       
b. will not be given a white stone (2:17)       
c. will not have a new name written therein (2:17)  
d. will not be given power over the nations (2:26)   
e. will not rule with Christ with a rod of iron (2:27)
f. will not receive the MORNING STAR (Rev 2:28)         
g. will not be dressed in white raiment. (3:5)           
h. WILL BE blotted out of the Book of life. (3:5)   
i. will not be confessed before Christ's Father (3:5)           
j. will not be confessed before the angels (Rev. 3:5)          
k. will not be a pillar in God's temple (3:12)            
l. will not go no more in or out (3:12)           
m. will not have the name of God's city written on him (3:12)        
n. will not have God's new name written on him (3:12)       
o. will not sit on Jesus' throne (3:21)

 

All of these promises are in the CONTEXT of warnings to the CHURCHES. I therefore apply them to Christians. - Joey Faust

 

I also apply them to saved the church members along with the lost church members. So what? -- Herb Evans

 

Herb also adds a verse containing three overcoming promises that are NOT in this context:

 

p. will not inherit all things (Rev. 21:7)        
q. will not have the Lord to be his God (21:7)         
r. will not be God's son (21:7)
          

 

These last three promises are in the context of ETERNITY (after the Millennium) in Revelation 21. It would seem reasonable that the Spirit would now deal with positional salvation and overcoming the penalty of eternal  sin by faith alone. If the promise in Revelation 21 is still to be applied to the people the Book is mainly addressed to (the churches), then I would certainly say that a carnal believer will not experience the above blessings during the MILLENNIUM: 1. Paul states plainly that carnal believers will not inherit the Kingdom (Galatians 5, Ephesians  5, 1 Corinthians 6). [dealt witH PREVIOUSLY] --Joey Faust

 

Where is that term used, i.e. “carnal believers?” Where does it even say “believers" there? Another interpolation? We have positional; salvation NOW! NOW we are the sons of God.  -- Herb Evans

 

2. The promise of God being the believer's God and Father in Revelation 21 is interpreted (in regard to Christians) in other places of the New Testament.    [??? - Herb Evans] 

 

             We are in the realm of practical truth concerning a Christian's daily WALK. Every believer is already a "son of God" positionally. But every believer is not WALKING with God and FULLY ENJOYING the practical blessings of this relationship. Or, another way of looking at it this distinction is to divide between TWO types of sonship. There is an eternal relationship by faith alone; and then there is a Millennial relationship through faith and works. It is clear that the promise in 2 Corinthians 6 is conditioned upon a walk of SEPARATION. All Christians (especially in this day and age) are not separated. There are other similar promises to believers:

 

The Christians that inherit the Millennium are in a special sense "children of God" and "children of the resurrection." They are FIRSTBORN and receive a DOUBLE portion (both the Millennium and eternity):

 

In conclusion, Herb's use of Revelation 21 is somewhat out of context. My book deals with Revelation 2 and 3 where the persons addressed are plainly the people in the Seven CHURCHES, who are already John's BRETHREN [doesn't say that – Herb Evans].   – Joey Faust

 

There you have it in Joey's own words. No further comment needed. Joey's convoluted scheme has two different kinds of children of God, two different kinds of sons of God, and two different kinds of new birth.  Do you buy it? We certainly do not. You must overcome by works; the blood of the lamb is not enough. All believer saints have the incorruptible inheritance and also the earnest of that inheritance (Holy Spirit), who have been made meet for that inheritance by the death and resurrection of our Saviour (Eph. 1:11,14,18; Col. 1:12, 13; 1 Pet. 1:3, 4. The Saints inherit all things, and Joey Faust is a heretic. –Herb Evans

 

The CARNAL, the NON CARNAL, the LOST, and the KINGDOM of HEAVEN


Whosoever therefore shall BREAK one of these LEAST COMMANDMENTS, and shall teach men so, he shall be called LEAST IN THE KINGDOM FOF HEAVEN: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called GREAT IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. For I say unto you,That except your RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall IN NO CASE ENTER INTO THE
KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. –Matthew 5:19,20

 

Joey Faust attempts through the power of suggestion, misplaced proof text, misinterpreted proof texts, innuendo, erroneously linked proof texts, inference, pontification, and pat answers to advance his cause of making a distinction between the carnal and the non carnal and is still unable to do it. Here is a passage that makes a distinction between two groups of believers and the lost. Both groups of Christians end up in the kingdom of heaven, the one in the position of greatness and the other in the position of least. The lost are denied entrance into the kingdom of heaven, because they only have their own righteousness, which is not sufficient righteousness, even that righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is obtained by believing. By teaching the heresy that he does, Joey Faust, if he makes it to the kingdom, will doubt end up as the least in that kingdom. So, it can be seen here that the differentiation amongst Christians is position rather than entrance versus exclusion. – Herb Evans

Rewardable Trial by FIRE and the Apostle of Uncertainty
 

That the TRIAL of your faith IS PRECIOUS, being much more precious than GOLD that persisheth, though it BE TRIED WITH FIRE, might be found UNTO PRAISE and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. -- 1 Peter 1:7
 

Yet if a man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God. And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear? -- 1 Peter 4:16-18

 

Joey Faust, spiritual arsonist, apostle of uncertainty, sees a fire in everything; he has never met a fire that he does not like. It is time for Joey to learn something about Fiery Fires and judgment that do not involve carnality or sin or punishment.

 

What we have here is FIERY JUDGMENT that has nothing to do with carnality or sin or punishment of the believer. Only two camps here--the lost and the righteous. No distinctions are made between the carnal and the non carnal.  These are righteous folks going through a FIERY TRIAL. The comparison is to earthly GOLD that is TRIED by FIRE. No burned up Christian here, only Christians going through a Fire. This trial is much more PRECIOUS than earthly Gold and will be rewarded at the appearing of the Lord at the JSOC. Praise and honor and glory, heavenly GOLD.  This FIERY trial is called a judgment of the righteous, which begins with them--not the carnal, and is rewarded accordingly. Even the righteous are said to be scarcely saved. It is too bad that Joey Faust cannot use these fiery, judgment passages to get you into the lake of fire and hell, dear reader. Now, Joey Faust’s RULE is that if it can happen on earth, it can happen at the JSOC. ‘Nuff said! Thank you Jesus! -- Herb Evans

 

The CARNAL, the NON CARNAL, the LOST, and the KINGDOM of HEAVEN


Whosoever therefore shall BREAK one of these LEAST COMMANDMENTS, and shall teach men so, he shall be called LEAST IN THE KINGDOM FOF HEAVEN: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called GREAT IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. For I say unto you,That except your RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall IN NO CASE ENTER INTO THE
KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. –Matthew 5:19,20

 

Joey Faust attempts through the power of suggestion, misplaced proof text, misinterpreted proof texts, innuendo, erroneously linked proof texts, inference, pontification, and pat answers to advance his cause of making a distinction between the carnal and the non carnal and is still unable to do it. Here is a passage that makes a distinction between two groups of believers and the lost. Both groups of Christians end up in the kingdom of heaven, the one in the position of greatness and the other in the position of least. The lost are denied entrance into the kingdom of heaven, because they only have their own righteousness, which is not sufficient righteousness, even that righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is obtained by believing. By teaching the heresy that he does, Joey Faust, if he makes it to the kingdom, will doubt end up as the least in that kingdom. So, it can be seen here that the differentiation amongst Christians is position rather than entrance versus exclusion. – Herb Evans

 

CONCLUSION

 

And EVERYONE that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundred fold, and SHALL INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE. – Matthew 19:29
 

Since Joey Faust loves to adapt certain instructions and promises in the word of God to conditions for continuous eternal life, we thought it appropriate for Joey to adapt just one more conditional passage (above) to his scheme, which surely will insure his getting killed at the JSOC and his trip to the lake of fire and hell. --by Herb Evans